Official Luthiers Forum!

Forgive me for putting this in this section of the forum but I think everyone that deals with PayPal or eBay needs to be aware how our rights are being taken away. Please wright your congressmen and senators asking for a Bill of Rights for Consumers on the internet.

Received notice today that the policy for PayPal is changing... here is the part that really bothers me...... ( EBay did this about 3 weeks ago )

Amendment to the PayPal User Agreement

This update to the User Agreement effective November 1, 2012 contains changes that affect how claims you and PayPal have against each other are resolved (see Disputes with PayPal below). You will, with limited exception, be required to submit claims you have against PayPal to binding and final arbitration, unless you opt out of the Agreement to Arbitrate (Section 14.3) by December 1, 2012. Unless you opt out: (1) you will only be permitted to pursue claims against PayPal on an individual basis, not as a plaintiff or class member in any class or representative action or proceeding and (2) you will only be permitted to seek relief (including monetary, injunctive, and declaratory relief) on an individual basis. See Disputes with PayPal below for more information.


To Opt out is even tricker...... they can send you email notice but look at what you have to do to opt out.

e. Opt-Out Procedure.

You can choose to reject this Agreement to Arbitrate ("opt out") by mailing us a written opt-out notice ("Opt-Out Notice"). For new PayPal users, the Opt-Out Notice must be postmarked no later than 30 Days after the date you accept the User Agreement for the first time. If you are already a current PayPal user and previously accepted the User Agreement prior to the introduction of this Agreement to Arbitrate, the Opt-Out Notice must be postmarked no later than December 1, 2012. You must mail the Opt-Out Notice to PayPal, Inc., Attn: Litigation Department, 2211 North First Street, San Jose, CA 95131.

The Opt-Out Notice must state that you do not agree to this Agreement to Arbitrate and must include your name, address, phone number, and the email address(es) used to log in to the PayPal account(s) to which the opt-out applies. You must sign the Opt-Out Notice for it to be effective. This procedure is the only way you can opt out of the Agreement to Arbitrate. If you opt out of the Agreement to Arbitrate, all other parts of the User Agreement, including all other provisions of Section 14 (Disputes with PayPal), will continue to apply. Opting out of this Agreement to Arbitrate has no effect on any previous, other, or future arbitration agreements that you may have with us

Please write you congressmen and senators.....

Blessings,

Kevin

It's just an arbitration agreement. I don't think it's taking away any rights, and whether or not it's enforceable would be up to the court. I think you could argue that it's illusory, that it wasn't a legit modification to contract, or that there wasn't mutual assent. There are probably other arguments, too, that I'm not aware of. And you can always send in that letter

You can always agree to not use PayPal. I pay sellers on Ebay with checks and money orders all the time.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

1st... The problem as I see it, it is about arbitration and any legal matter that you deem necessary against PayPal or EBay is forced into an arbitration situation with out due process of law you are forced to arbitrate. If for instance PayPal locks your account up..... you don't have a right to sue in court but are forced to arbitrate and yes arbitration will hold up in court.

2nd.... Let's say there is a charge which someone else finds to be usury or something similar and they go to court and receive a positive judgement or if you or a group of people wish to file a class action suit if you don't sign out of this agreement you are forced into arbitration and your right to a day in court is null and any other court judgment will not effect your case. Because your only course of response is arbitration.

Coming from a general contracting background these things are kiss of death to our civil rights as consumers ....... been there done that.......

Blessings,

Kevin

I can see why you're concerned. I don't have an in depth knowledge of this, but I'm doing well in my contracts and civil procedure classes and can say that once you're in contract, one party can't just change the terms. I would want to research it further, but my guess is that if you were already a PayPal member, jurisdiction could be challenged. Or you could just say, "Ok, whatever. I don't consent to this. Here's my post card."

Maybe someone else knows more about this kind of situation?

I called Paypal and talked to "Mike in Customer Solutions." He said that if I opt out of the binding arbitration agreement, my paypal account remains open and I can still use it. I plan to send the letter to opt out. Paypal has been very useful to me. A few times a year, one of my customers wants to use a credit card to pay for a guitar. Paypal is a very convenient way to do this--I don't have to pay a monthly fee and only pay when I sell something. I will opt out and keep using it.

This is nothing new and, IMHO, not particularly concerning. At least they are letting folks opt-out (and the process doesn't seem overly complicated). As a typical consumer, try to negotiate an arbitration agreement with other online/software companies that regularly alter their terms and conditions. The reality is, while arbitration is generally thought to be more corporate defense friendly, the process is usually just as costly, procedurally fair, and drawn out as most traditional civil actions filed with a court. Available remedies will generally mirror those available in state or federal court. Waiving your right to join in a representative action isn't particularly troubling to me either. If the company took an action adverse to you or your account individually, you could arbitrate. If there was some more global problem, well, you might lose out on the tiny award or pyrrhic victory so common to such suits.

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Aaron Craig

Overall, I see no problem either. PayPal has always been aboveboard in all of its dealings with me and I expect no disputes. But, PayPal has a direct line to my bank account and a mistake could be costly to me. Protecting my legal rights is worth the effort of a letter.