Official Luthiers Forum!

Tony has astutely gleaned some insight into this customer, but there is more info hidden in the subtext. He also has a very classy rec-room in his tastefully decorated home, loves subtle Christmas decorations and if you hit his mustache with a stick, candy will fall out of his nose.

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

Handcrafted mustache thank you very much.


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http://www.CostaGuitars.com
PMoMC

Interesting conversation and quite enjoyable.

When I think handmade I think one off. An original not a copy.

That said, all my instruments have in parts, copies. However, I make enough of the instrument to call each an original.

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Michael Lloyd

“I was born to ignorance, yes, and lesser poverties ...
I was born to privilege that I did not see ... I didn’t know it, but my way was paved” – John Gorka

I need to build a rudder for my boat. I wish I had CNC for that! You sound like the kind of guy that could make one easily.

Late to the party, again. Interesting thread, no doubt.

I'm also of the opinion that the concept of handmade is subjective. But it seems like builders and our customers do not share a common perception of what it might mean. As builders, I think we tend to split hairs and ask questions such as: CNC or no? Hand tools or power tools? Outsourced inlays, finish, necks, or builder-made? You know, builder kinds of questions.

Our customers on the other hand—mine at least—seem to be asking different questions. Is this your own design? Did you really use a brush for the finish? How did you ever learn to do this? Can I see your shop? Can you really design a guitar just for me? Wow, the top is tuned by hand?

Seems to me that people in the market for handmade goods of quality are putting a high value on objects that are the work of someone they can talk to, ask about their work, provide input on what is built for them. The value seems to lie in the fact that the builder(s) has a certain level of skill, and it is the use of those skills in creating the customer's piece that people some people will pay for, as if to say, "a guitar builder who labored for years to master his skills made this guitar for me" rather than, "a team of factory workers, none of whom could alone build an instrument, built this guitar in a big factory overseas." It's as if the builders personal involvement is the attraction, even if there is a slew of builders in a factory who are all masterful as was often the case in the old days (CF Martin for example). It is that personal, emotional involvement that can result in a piece of work that is a masterpiece or has mojo, or however you want to describe it. A human being(s) drew on their experience and hard won skills and put their own sweat and blood into the thing, whether they were pushing a mouse or a plane. And through the builder, the customers gets to put those skills to work vicariously.

That is where I think the romantic notion of handmade lies out there in the marketplace. Or not.

I think we need a new term. Handmade just doesn't convey what I think it is that we do, what with the advent of all the devices, machines and computers that are found in modern shops. But what would be an apt descriptor that would still convey the romance of "handmade"?


Pat

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formerly known around here as burbank
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

We do have to keep in mind that 'perfect' is a value judgement: a perfect fog horn would make a lousy oboe, and vice versa.

In the violin world, as has been pointed out, a few tool marks and some asymmetry is considered 'perfect', because that's what Strad did. A fiddle that has been CNC'd to the nines with every part perfectly interchangeable with all of the others off that line would be (and is) considered to be just about worthless. A 'real' violin is, in part, a piece of art, and hence needs to be individual.

The steel string guitar, as Arnt said, is a piece of _design_. What counts is reproducing the design 'perfectly': the same every time. This is, in part, the outcome of the different history of the steel string guitar and the violin, but it also has to do with the fact that it's fairly easy to make a steel string guitar that sounds about as good as the best one, even on a production line, whereas violin makers still don't know how to reproduce the best violins.

These differences show up in innumerable ways in the making of the different instruments. Neither view is more 'right' than the other in any objective sense, but each way is considered 'right' for it's own field.

In this respect, making guitars with hand tools one-at-a-time is stupid: you can't get anywhere near the level of 'perfection' of work that a decent production line can without spending an inordinate amount of time acquiring an absurd level of tool chops. The catch there is that you can't attain a really high level of tonal consistency unless you can introduce enough variability into the thing to account for the inherent differences in wood quality. If you make enough, as Martin and Taylor do, you can work to averages, but for somebody making a few custom instruments a year you need to get more control than good jigging, or even good programming, is likely to give you, at least in the near future.

Those of us who started in when computers were the size of file cabinets, and only major corporations and governments could afford them, had to work on the 'tool chops' thing perforce. Now that we've gotten it (more or less) we need to justify ourselves. We can always hope, too, that at some point a clientele will develop that sees the guitar as a Work of Art, rather than simply as an industrial commodity, and then we can justify the time and effort we put in.

Word Filippo. Word


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http://www.CostaGuitars.com
PMoMC

Dittos.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Wascaly Wabbits.

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I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic

This thread might need a goat pic at this point lest we go round and round in circles again.


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http://www.CostaGuitars.com
PMoMC

I really have a problem with someone who is a guitar tech or probably went to school for a few months assembling guitars farming the job out to China and slapping his own label on it. LOTS of people do that in Taiwan. When I ask them details about the construction of an instrument (to a guy who claims to make saxophones) he doesn't know anything about it. Then asked him how he makes his instrument, and he said he designs them and then farms the work to China. One other guitar tech in Taipei also does that, he sells guitar with his names on it but he didn't make any of them.

There is nothing wrong with CNC although I would leave certain areas too large such as the neck shaft, to allow for final fitting to a particular player's hand. The CNC would save time by not having to remove as much wood from the neck, and set details such as peghead shape would be consistently shaped. It is also a good idea to have critical dimensions such as fret spacing CNC'ed (and in the event of a commission I will purchase a pre slotted and radiused fretboard) since bad fret spacing will do more to hurt my reputation.

I've learned in my first year of professional luthiery that being a luthier is as much about knowing the player as being able to shape and fit parts correctly. This is important in things like setup because not everyone want super low action. Sure, most of my Taiwanese customer can't imagine someone wanting super high actions but some player like to play hard and likes the big sound. I prefer to deal face to face because it allows me that opportunity, and I try to treat every customer like a friend.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Ok Todd. I will start the navel gazing with super model Karolina Kurkova' midriff.


What's that? She has no belly button? Oh man....this is awkward. Hey look! A goat with braces!

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http://www.CostaGuitars.com
PMoMC

I think at least one of those images may have been digitally altered. I don't have any goat pics to add so I thought I would add a goatee pic. I can't seem to find one right now so how about just a 'stache pic? I realize that this will never qualify me for the HR department of Costa Guitars, but what are you gonna do?

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

I think we definitely need a cartoon bubble cloud option that we can fill in!

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

See...at first, I thought the guy was all weirded out by the missing belly button. Now I know he doesnt like being stared at.
That word bubble is so useful!!

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http://www.CostaGuitars.com
PMoMC

Which guy? That really handsome albeit slightly sunburned guy in the above pic? It is not that he minds being stared at (he is used to it) it just gets taxing being followed home by all the single ladies.

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

Dang, if I'd a known that's all you need to apply...

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

Why are you laying on your side Andy?

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http://www.CostaGuitars.com
PMoMC

That was after happy hour.

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

Because that is what it takes to get the job.


Andy, we could be brothers. . .

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

What does a plane shaving a guitar have to do with the handbuilt thread?


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http://www.CostaGuitars.com
PMoMC

It serves as an example that even handbuilders sometime use the wrong tool for the job. That is a hand plane and should be used for planing hands. He should be using a guitar plane for that job.

My wife has made hands in the past and is currently working on another set. She is at 20 weeks today, so the current set of hands are recognizable (though she has to make them bigger over the next 20ish weeks). I'll get a pictuer of them Friday afternoon maybe I'll post it. The strange thing is, even though she is making hands, she is not using her hands. Go figure; this is a confusing topic isn't it. . .

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

Congrats, Bryan! May those hands be strong.

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Always have plenty of sandpaper; it's rough out there!