Official Luthiers Forum!

And you think carving a bridge out of a tree stump will make a difference?

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A man hears what he wants to hear, and disreguards the rest. Paul Simon

"California roundover" gave me a laugh. I haven't heard that in over 35 years.

For me handmade means one, two or three at a time, however you do it.

The only reason I cut dovetails by hand ( draws and cabinets ) is because they look better. It's not any stronger.

My website doesn't say hand made. It says made by me.

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Regards from RangeView, Bill

Don't worry Andy, we'll get you trained. . .

Hey Rodger, can you beleive Tony is going to use tools to carve that tree stump into a bridge? what a hack! I do mine with my bare hands as god intended. Actually I use my Bear hands, but don't tell anyone. . .

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

Hey, I'll take the hair I had in the '70's; that was back when I had plenty of it. I figure changing the bad hairstyle is a bunch cheaper than getting more hair.

As for the granola, hard times have forced me to let the chimp go, and he took the granola with him.

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Always have plenty of sandpaper; it's rough out there!

If only Krenov were still with us. He would surly have all the answers to this one. All this pondering is making me thirsty. What time is cocktail hour at the Temple Tony?

It's always cocktail hour at the giant hand! Drink up!


Posted from my Toaster oven using Tapatalk

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http://www.CostaGuitars.com
PMoMC

Every time I drink a glass of Milk I think....

"I'm at step one of making my own bridge pins."

I had some pretty cute hair in the seventies. I had a powder blue suit too. Every time I wore it my dad made me point up and say "De plane boss, de plane." During the course of the 80s I started to look less and less like Tattoo. . .

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

Hey everyone, when I started this thread, I had no idea it would get this far. Thanks for all the insight, I feel like I've learned something about the way y'all approach building, which is what I was after. One reason I asked to begin with was to simply understand what is most common among builders, especially those who sell.

In my professional life, as well as other hobbies, I noticed a bad habbit of corporations taking credit for other's work. I find this distasteful, to say the least. A few quick car examples: in the late 80's to early 90's, there was a rash of high end cars with foreign engines. The Ford SHO had one built by Yamaha, on the valve cover it said "Yamaha." On the new model of Lotus with the Isuzu engine, the valve cover said "Isuzu." But on the "king of the hill" Corvette, with the foreign engine, the valve cover said "Chevrolet." When Chrysler came out with the Crossfire, the hype was that it was a true Chrysler, not what it really was, which was a Mercedes Benz with a different body. I think they lost some business with that marketing plan.

And over the years, I watched as the lines became so blurred that in my last job I learned you simply cannot trust what you see. The last great example was a photo of a brake drum that had "Made in Germany" cast into the surface. The photo was taken at the foundry where it was made, in China.

At a festival a couple of years ago I saw a fiddle maker who had 5 or 6 instruments set out to sell. I asked about them, he pointed to one and said he built it from a kit, the rest were made from scratch. I was surprised to see the same price on each one.

So I suppose at least on some level, my journey into instrument making is a way to find something more real in the world. A way for me to see something that is made by an actual person who is responsible for the design and the execution of that design. In the replies, I was a bit surprised by the stance of hand tools versus power tools, since to me they are the same since they both require me to hold either the tool or the part to shape it the way it needs to be.

And I figure everyone has a point where they will purchase parts, or blanks, or in-process parts. So my quest was simply to see where various people draw that line. Personally, I buy hardware, pins, and buttons. I buy top sets, fingerboard blanks, and bindings. Some day I may purchase rosettes. But that is just me, it is the place where I am comfortable right now. And I have learned a lot by seeing what others do.

As for the computer chimps, don't get me started. Everywhere I look I see more examples of computers putting people out of work. Just today for example, my local newspaper practically shut down. I am a long time subscriber, but my daily paper is now on-line, with a print version 3 days a week. Well over a hundred people added to the rolls today, and that job, like the ones I lost, ain't coming back.

Did I mention I love sawdust?

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Phil

http://www.oleninstruments.com

"Those who tilt at windmills are only considered insane by those who can't see the dragon."

A double bass fingerboard is a complex form. It's a compound radius oriented so the A string is the high point, with built in relief at 525mm from the nut, 1/2 the 1050mm scale. ( 1030mm - 1070mm is considered 3/4 db )

I shape 98% of the board freehand on the jointer with full and taper cuts. The fb is glued to the neck so I have a handle. I can spoil this very easily at any time.

All the bevels and relief are faired with a plane or scraper plane, depending on the timber, at the bench. This is a slower, more controlled process with plenty of chances to correct.

Both are skilled activities but I feel the jointer work requires more skill, because more can go wrong quicker.

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Regards from RangeView, Bill

Lots of people buy guitars for all sorts of irrational reasons, that have little or nothing to with the quality of the instrument. A part of what they are buying, along with the guitar itself, is the story that goes with it. For some, brand names and conventions matter a lot, for a few others knowing the builder and being involved in the process of the making of their instrument is a big part of the attraction. Some also care about how it was made, the origin of the materials etc. and some want to know whether a cnc or jeweler's saw was used to cut the pearl logo, for example.
One of my customers came to me after having a heart attack at age 45, when he was struggling with all kinds depressions and hardships. He is an avid bluegrass guitaris with lots of gigs, but he never really had a quality instrument before, so he decided "now or never". Ordering a custom made instrument, getting to chose the woods, seeing pictures of the work in progress, and even showing up to see me work on it, was the one "real" thing that got him mentally back on his feet after the heart attack, he told me later. And he was totally fascinated with the process; I use a fairly common combination of hand tools and machinery, but for him the fact that the instrument was conceived built by one person with a mainly manual effort ("hand guided tools"), was incredibly exiting. For him, who's day job is in front of a computer, it would not have been the same if the neck had came off a cnc, for example. I think lots of people are like that, and the less common traditional woodworking tools become, the more exotic seeing them in use will be, for some. If nothing else, I see this as a market opportunity.

In the world of classical violin family instruments, the "maker's touch", the various differences that make each instrument unique, are expected in a quality instrument. For factory made guitars, such inconsistencies are generally frowned upon, as a sign of poor QC. It has to do with the history of these instruments; the violin became what it is (except some modifications to the neck etc) about 300 years ago, whereas the modern steel sting guitar is mainly a factory product. I have a feeling things may be a bit different for classical guitars? I see this debate also among mandolin makers, especially those who make archtop F-style ones, which are a bit like guitars, and a bit like violins, but probably more akin to violins in term of construction. It is hard to imagine many of those makers touches on guitars (except in design) that can be seen as anything but blemishes, whereas on mandolins some folks like them. Others hate them, of course. "Distressing" is also a practiced art (as it has been for ages with violins, and more recently on electric guitars), but seldom seen on new acoustic guitars.

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

So I guess the true handmade purists are out currently planting the seeds that will grow the trees for their future instruments.....Pass the granola please.

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Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

I don't understand why anyone wanting to be a luthier would buy necks, bridges etc. already made. The way people shape the heel or volute or carve (with handtools or CNC) bridges makes the instruments unique.
If your like me and just starting out making guitars I think it's a good idea to not become fixated with the money but rarther concentrate on the process and workmanship. If you get that sorted you're in more of a position to make money out of your instruments.
Stuart, I think your arguments are valid. Out of interest, have you ever made instruments using "tools that you move by hand"?

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We are all in the gutter but some of us are looking at guitars.

Yes, and what's all this about Granola and '70's haircuts? What does it have to do with anything?



Probably an American thing...

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

Just because you can't see the reasons doesn't mean that the reasons aren't there for other people. For about 11 years I built instruments in the "traditional fashion" using hand tools, hand guided power tools + jigs etc. I built a CNC machine (from a semi-kit) so that I could "up my game" luthiery wise. I keep a blog about my luthing activities and here's my post from it explaining my rationale:

"The reason I decided to go this rout is to remedy the issues I alluded to in prior posts. Although I'm a fan of hand building techniques, I'm also a pragmatist when it comes to instruments. My goal is to make the best instruments I can, and to be able to make enough instruments to leave a mark in the bandura world. My day job keeps me very busy which is why I can only make about one instrument a year. Using CNC, I think I should be able to increase that output without compromising anything about the instrument.

Additionally, CNC opens up a world of accuracy and precision that's simply impractical using strictly hand techniques. This should allow me to finally design a re-tune mechanism for my instruments that actually works without the buzzing, loss of tone and other shortcomings of current re-tune mechanisms.

The purist might argue that this is too close to factory techniques but frankly, I don't care. If using the CNC allows me to improve my instruments, I'm going to use it where appropriate."

Personally I don't understand where all the closed mindedness comes from. The line we draw as to what is o.k. by luthier cop standards and what isn't is strictly arbitrary. Anyone who doesn't draw their own fretwire is cheating. And if you don't cut the worm gear on your tuners with a file (which you made from home made steel) you're a hack.

There is a place, and a market, for every point in the continuum between strictly hand made and strictly machine made. In the end, we're all making instruments to be used by players and it's really the player's requirements and opinions that count. If you're building for yourself and want a strictly hand made instrument...fantastic. Knock yourself out. If your customer demands a "strictly hand made instrument" and is willing to pay the required amount, by all means do so. But please don't for a second think that an instrument made with machines, be it a router, table saw or CNC is inherently less of an "instrument" because of the process involved.

For the last several months, I've been designing and manufacturing custom bridge designs using CAD for the drawing and my CNC machine for the execution. I love the process of going from someone's napkin sketch of a bridge to a CAD model, the back and forth to tweak the design to meet the customers vision and finally the first parts off the machine. Helping them realize their vision which in some cases has been completely impractical using hand tools gives me great satisfaction. And I can also tell you that my customers have been equally satisfied and sometimes overjoyed. To quote one customer (who shall remain nameless) "I think that if those bridges were women, I would be trying to have sex with them! "

In the end, do what you want, what you can and what makes you happy. If raining on someone else's parade makes you happy...well...so be it I suppose. I hang out on a CNC forum as well and there are guys that have been designing and slowly building their first CNC machine for years with no end in site. They don't have any specific projects in mind for it, they just want to go through the process of building a machine because that's where they find their joy. I'm o.k. with that.

What's say we all gather round for a group hug/granola/martini ?

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

The guy who said that, and I am just assuming it was a guy, is clearly very intelligent, handsome, and oozing with class and style. You obviously have excellent taste in customers Andy.

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http://www.CostaGuitars.com
PMoMC

Not only that, my customers have truly outstanding taste in choosing whom they do business with.

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

It's as simple as this to me, am I a maker or an assembler?

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Expectation is the source of all misery; comparison the thief of joy.
http://redrivercanoe.ca/

I've ditched my abacus and upgraded to a slide rule. I refuse to use a digital caliper, it's dial all the way baby. I will only listen to records in my shop, who the heck came up with that 8-track tape garbage?



On my label it says, "Built by John McKenna" not "we built this" or "You built this" But I did. If I had apprentices I'd change the label to reflect that and in fact my wife for a while made rosettes for me since I hate that type of work, I gave her credit on the label.

I think CNC is cool, just another tool. And that guy doing the challenge build with the laser cutter is super cool. The people who buy guitars from me like the fact that I oversee the whole project and document it in real time so they can watch. IF they are near by they are more than welcome to come by and see whats going on. It's almost like theater they are paying for an experience and that is what they want regardless of the tools used to get from start to finish.

Maybe one day we will be able to insert a log into one end of a machine and a few hours later a guitar will pop out, that would even make me yearn for the good ol' days

I just asking, why would you make all the others parts of a guitar and buy the neck and bridge pre-made, unless your in large production and have them made to your specification or you're just dabbling in making a one-off instrument as a hobby? The original question was I would answer- if you call yourself a builder, then none. If you want to call yourself a luthier you should learn how to make all the parts (excuding hardware) either by hand tools, machines or CNC. Then you understand the geometry of the instrument.
I'm not criticising people who use CNC. It's obviously a very creative practise. I wouldn't mind having a go myself if the opertunity arose.

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We are all in the gutter but some of us are looking at guitars.

No....not one.

I came to build guitars after developing my cnc skills in a business I owned. I owned many large production machines and when I sold that business I kept two of them with the idea of relocating them to a home shop and learning to build guitars with them. I have no point of reference other than using the cnc machines to make guitars.

You might note that I make no argument against hand made guitars. I just don't abide judgments against me for using talents and an abilities that took me a decade to master to make my guitars. I'm good humored about all of this but there certainly is an underlying judgement against the use of certain tools by certain people in this business. It's quite odd to go from a business in which you are not taken seriously unless you employ cnc machines to a business that includes groups of people that disparage them. I have to adjust to that. I built a reputation based on craftsmanship and quality making critical airplane parts...but my craftsmanship, which I define as an attitude that always strives for perfection, is different than other craftsmanship?

Make guitars by hand if it suits you. Love it. Enjoy it.

Hehe...but just so you know....I'm going to tweak you Luddites for sport when you make yourselves targets.

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I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic

Andy and Stuart, You guys are finding insults here where they are clearly not stated as such. Calm down.

...and you're perceiving agitation where there is none, Barry.

I just like to write.

Sometimes the best thing in my world is clarity.

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I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic

We also forget that some folks just enjoy some of the process of building a guitar, and don't have time for every nuance of the project. Maybe Joe wants to give each of his grand kids or kids a guitar that he built for them for (insert holiday etc. here) and simply doesn't have time to carve all the necks or bridges. He could, but that's not what he's getting out of it...he's getting the looks on the faces of those whom he hands the instruments to. That's Great! Maybe he wants the logo he does to have a real crisp factory-like look to it...so rather than cut them all by hand, he goes to a CNC guy and has some of that work done. So what? This isn't always the same motivation for everyone building an instrument. The professional ranks are a different...at least for the guitar industry, most have to go for what works for their market, usually a combination of methods that allow them to make whatever profit margin works best for them.

It will never have the same intrinsic value for everyone. Nothin' wrong with that.

For me, I get a huge kick out of designing something in my head, drawing it in CAD, and then creating the fixture to hold a part and subsequently machining the part successfully. It doesn't always work exactly as you expect it to either. Sometimes I could do it a lot faster with some other method, but this is where I get my personal enjoyment. And my customers don't mind. Not that I have any, mind you.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

I AM PERFECTLY CALM !!!!!!!


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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com