Official Luthiers Forum!

OK, a bit of a philosophical question. For those of you professionals or otherwise buid guitars to sell, I am wondering, how much of the instrument do you make yourself, and how much do you use as pre-purchased blanks? Or to put it another way, how much of a guitar needs to be made by the builder for it to qualify as hand made?

I am now working on my first two. As I hope they will someday go out into the world, I can see a very real need to standardize some items. Things like hardware - tuners, fret wire, bridge pins, and strap buttons I see as no problem. Same with useing purchased truss rods. But what of the other parts?

For example, think of the neck. I see two ways to get a neck, either buy a pre-made blank or buy a board and make your own from scratch. the pre-made will save some time, and therefore possibly money. But can you still claim a hand made instrument using these parts?

This will also apply to things like premade head blocks, pre-cut neck joints, kerfing, bridges, and pick guards. Some vendors even supply pre-shaped braces and pre-bent sides.

i talked to a builder once who told me he uses pre-shaped neck blanks because the supplier could build a blank as good as he, and it saved him some time. He then told me what makes a guitar is the expertise of the builder who puts it together and voices it, not who makes the blank parts.

I realize I may have opened a can of worms here, and I mean no disrespect to anyone. But I have been thinking about this, and am very curious to hear what y'all think.

Just how many of the pieces of a guitar must be made by the builder for him to claim it is a hand made instrument?

Thanks for chiming in!

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Phil

http://www.oleninstruments.com

"Those who tilt at windmills are only considered insane by those who can't see the dragon."

Seth writing here

really good topic spyder. Not saying this is how it should be but here's what happens at Timeless.

We do our own resawing, and don't buy any pre-purchased blanks. Partly because of our location, but the earlier in the process you get the wood, the cheaper it is. It is also part of our context as a school. We teach our students to understand the feel of working wood so that they can apply those skills in whatever manner they build on their own. So guitars in our shop are very handmade, from rough pieces of lumber and shaped with planes, chisels, and scrapers. That said we use a lot of routers, dremels and bandsaws throughout the course.

You could expand the question to "does using power tools constitute handmade?" but maybe the question is "is handmade better?" I would argue that it CAN be, but not necessarily. Handmade guitars have the potential to shape the sound more precisely, get the playablity right where it ought to be and build an instrument that lasts a long time and sounds great. You can get into details too expensive or time consuming for production lines. But more is riding on the skill of the craftsman too, and a "handmade" guitar not built with care could be as plain or perhaps even worse than something off a line.

If you want to buy pre-cut blanks and call your instruments handmade, there's really no rule saying you can't. And if you feel you can get just as good a product that way, then why not? Pre-cut necks have a certain shape and you're stuck with that if you go in that direction, so these things have to be weighed. Do you want your guitar to cost you more money? or more time? What do you gain and what do you lose when you choose one thing over another. And not everyone will answer the same. Some guys are trying to crank out guitars to pay bills and other wouldn't dream of letting someone else to an ounce of work for them. The pleasure of shaping the wood is the reward for them, not the guitar itself.

Cheers, Seth

Todd Stock wrote:

" I consider the ability to fabricate each and every component of an instrument to a professional standard - as well as repair them when they come back to the shop - to be the expected level of performance for any for-hire builder. Once having met that standard, I think it's probably a business or personal decision as to just how much of his or her own labor goes into an instrument carrying their name."

So after someone can successfully build a nice guitar they can job the whole thing out to the Chinese and slap their label on it and call it their own?

This question comes up every now and then. To me , some people that don't have the space and live in cities in a condo may need the kit as they may not have the area to do some of the more dirty work . Some people may use a kit as a way of saving time. In olden days the apprentice did most of the laborious tasks and the master did fitting.
I know some people with argue that you need to do it all to be "hand made" and to this I would say , did you smelt the ore to make the tuners and strings ? Of course not . So to me hand made in guitar construction is fitting the parts and the actual process of assembly. After all , braces that are purchased still need to be adjusted , necks that are CNCed still need to be fitted and fretboards need to be trued. I don't know of any kit that is a lickem and stickem fitting is still reguired. CF Martin still call their instruments hand made even though many parts are CNCed and processes jigged . There is still a certain amount of hand work involved.
I would say that if you want to be a professional at this , you need to know how to do each and every part in the guitar and the production of each part. At that point it becomes a business decision as Todd suggests. I have sold over 150 instruments to date and started with a kit then carving each piece and now what I don't produce I have made to my specs. I can make a neck in about 2 hours from start to final finish but I can be more production by ordering the neck and apply my time elsewhere in the build.
As you can read in to this Todd and I are pretty much on the same page . It is a customer draw to know that I make my own braces I resaw and bend my wood , often make my own bindings. While I do use some hand tools I have a collection of tools that make build more efficient for my process.
There is a great amount of work that can be done with the simplest of hand tools . Time becomes the issue. The more time in the making the more cost is in the end product.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

I take in work from other shops and builders. I do the things for them that they cannot or do not wish to do themselves. Making necks, bridges, finish work etc. I have the knowledge and the tooling to do these things and don't mind doing them..... as long as we can agree on a value. So in effect these parts are still handmade, just not by the hand you may have initially thought.

So the crux of the biscuit would seem to be what exactly constitutes handmade? Coming from a commercial background I can see the benefits of CNC, though it is not my style and I d not see myself going that direction in the near term I can see where it could fall under the heading of handmade. A CNC is in the end just another tool, so it falls more under the debate of calories vs. electrons. I prefer a mix of hand and power tools myself.

So what constitutes hand made? There will be many answers, some of them better than others from certain perspectives. First we should establish what is not hand made as that should be easy.... or is it? I believe we can all agree that factory made is not handmade. But at what point does a lutherie turn into a factory? Is it based on yearly production? Number of employees? Gross sales? Or is it about the process used to create the instruments? Is a company with 12 employees working at stations, each doing specific tasks to make a complete instrument a factory? How does that differ from the guy who outsources his necks and buys his rims pre-bent? Only real difference is the distance between workstations. Then there is the person who assembles Martin kits and gives them a finish....technically all his parts were made in a factory, just assembled at a different location.

Personally, here at my shop, handmade means just that. With very few exceptions ( fretwire, etc.) every part of the instrument was fabricated from stock right here by me. However in the broader sense of the term I can see handmade being applied to any instrument that was made as a singularity. Where specific attention to detail was paid that can never be accomplished in a manufacturing setting. Such as tops and bracing that are tuned for those pieces of wood and for that instrument, neck angles set to a very narrow tolerance to achieve optimum bridge height and action, brilliant fretwork and set-up and so on.

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Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

I think there is a difference in the look of a guitar that was built mainly from CNC parts VS all hand-made. One will have more of a "mechanical perfection" and the other will exhibit "imperfections" that show the builders hand. I know what I prefer, but there is no practical difference to the player.

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https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100008907949110

Very true. Nobody wants to see evidence of the craftsmans hand anymore! Interesting related article.
http://www.premierguitar.com/Magazine/I ... rfect.aspx

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Dave
Milton, ON

I don't think the term "hand-made" accurately applies to very many people. As others have pointed out, even most of the old school builders use more power tools than hand tools. I'm sure there are builders who could use the term honestly but for most of us, it's simply inaccurate.

I think a more accurate term for most of us is something like "custom" or "solo" builder. But I think it's misleading to call yourself a custom builder if you can't customize anything out of wood yourself (whether by hand or power tools).

That said, the whole subject is nothing I would ever lose sleep over.

I will say that one of my clients, after seeing my shop, suggested that I should promote my use of machines more. He thought that many guitar buyers associated "hand-made" with "home-made", as in lacking needed precision. We all know that neither hand tools nor power tools guarantee good work but I think he's right that, for better or worse, more buyers are concerned about precision than are concerned about whether you made or bought your parts.

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http://www.chassonguitars.com

I think the issue really is: ...why is it important to any of us to label something "hand made"?

The subject is fascinating due to the fact that machines are an inescapable part of our modern lives....and the term "hand made" seems to me to be a vestigial echo of an idealized past. Many people look back and romanticize the simplicity of things and ascribe virtue to that simplicity. To those people there is real value attached to the notion of "hand made". I have no quarrel with them unless they judge me for the tools I use....but the definition of the term "hand made" eludes me entirely since NO guitar is entirely made by hand and virtually all the tools used by luthiers today are made using cnc machines. I employ cnc machines to make my guitars and my hands are an integral aspect of that process. Without my hands my guitars won't exist.

When I look back I ask what Mozart would have done with a synthesizer, what Einstein would have done with a computer, what Whitney would have done with a cnc machine....which is to say I don't idealize the past so I'm not personally inclined to value the idea of "hand made". I have no judgement for those who do value ethereal ideas unless they seem to get out of balance in that perspective.

Are you hoping to sell instruments...or something else?

Decades ago I watched a 60 Minutes segment on pop art. An "artist" had written RAT RAT RAT in large, red block letters on a white canvas and some idiot bought it for $50,000. I was just a kid then but I learned something that stuck with me all these years later. There is a market for absolutely everything in this world but sheer, stupid luck plays a big part in what you are able to sell for exaggerated values. The lesson I took from that is that a practical man has to strive to do his best and and not focus too much on intangible or ethereal notions. Few people are lucky enough to retire on RAT RAT RAT.

Do your best and if it matters to you whether or not the bridge you are gluing to a body is purchased from someone else....then try making your own bridge from scratch. If it is meaningful to you...you'll always strive to make that bridge better. In the final analysis it's really about ascribing meaning to things. Craftsmanship is not what you do with your hands...it's what you do with your heart and your head.

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I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic

Exactly. I never say "hand made". I do tell people that a lot of hand work goes into the instruments, and that they should expect to see the builder's hand in all of my guitars.

How many hands do you have that you can cut one off and leave with each guitar you make?


Posted from my Toaster oven using Tapatalk

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http://www.CostaGuitars.com
PMoMC

There is a right answer to this question. First of all, the term "handmade" can mean two separate things. The true dictionary definition of handmade dictates a product that is made using only hand tools. How the hand tools are made doesn't matter. Very few of us (probably none actually) would fit the actual definition of "handmade". However, languages are living things and the meaning of words change with time. "Handmade" is often used to refer to items made by artisans. For example, handmade vases, furniture, etc. Many people appreciate and notice a difference between a factory's approach and the individual artisan's approach. The term handmade is used sort of like a nod to old school techniques -- building with hand tools or a product from a one man shop.

I prefer to avoid the problem with semantics altogether and just refer to myself as an artisan and my product as "artisan made". I also do this because I still see real value in the true definition of handmade. It is much more difficult to do things entirely by hand than to employ the use of power tools.

I do see tremendous value for woodworkers to be efficient with hand tools. I also believe that if you want to do this even semi-professionally that you have to employ power tools - otherwise, you likely wouldn't be efficient enough to make a profit.

It's funny, there sea to be a big difference in perspective between the words "hand made" & "hand crafted" yet the art of mean the same thing. I use the term hand crafted for my guitars. I don't need to argue what parts were sourced or what were made by my own hands.

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

I make all the wood parts from raw materials.
I buy b/s sets and tops with the exception of Sapele, and lower grade Sitka, which I re-saw in house.
I buy fingerboard and bridge blanks from a wholesale outlet.
I buy all hardware except pickguards which we make. Headstock logos are laser cut to my design from ablam.

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Freeborn Guitars
and home of BeauGuard©

HANDMADE:
adj
made by hand, not by machine, esp with care or craftsmanship

This implies if hands make it and the tool power , or not , as long as they are hand operated are therefore by definition hand made.
I think we are splitting hairs here . If you used your hands to make it , shape it , final fit it , I think it earns the hand made title

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Ditto. I build just about everything from rough wood, except I buy fingerboard blanks from LMII and I buy truss rod covers that are inlayed with my logo. If I get busy enough, believe me I'll start having some pieces roughed out....body blanks, maybe. I don't have any particular objection to CNC and other machine work. I just can't really justify doing like that right now.

Definitely an interesting, hair-splitting thread.

"Made by...xxx"
"Crafted by...xxx"
"Designed and assembled by...xxx"

We've all seen phrases like this, and probably many others.

In the end, the things that matter most to me are that:
1. No ambiguity has occurred. (The purpose of this thread.)
2. Both parties are happy.
3. Nobody lost their shirt in the process.

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Always have plenty of sandpaper; it's rough out there!

"Hand Made" in the internet age is just marketing. Some people imply than "hand made" automatically means "good". Some people think "hand made" means "home made" and that implys shoddy workmanship. In the end the guitar speaks for itself. I make, and do everything myself, by hand, or with hand operated power tools, with the exception of my Logos, which I have CNC'd. Of the ~50 people who own guitars I've built and the 16 currently on my wait list none have ever asked, or cared.

FWIW, I usually even make my own kerfing opps, I meant "kerfed linings".

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I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said.
http://www.brackettinstruments.com/

If the craftsmans hand guides the tool (powered or not), it's handmade. IMO

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Dave
Milton, ON

well...its 2012, so build the best guitar you can in the way that makes most sense to you.
And dont forget to have fun.

I make it very clear to customers that no robots were used during the construction of their instrument. If there is a point system though, I think I just gained a few. I had some part of the cow bones that had been cut in half and were lying around outside for some time. I boiled them up in a pressure cooker the other day, sliced them up and have them in peroxide right now. No question that will make for a more hand made guitar than all you guys that don't go to all that trouble. Imagine if I were the guy that actually killed the cow. Serious cred.

Danny

Well, if they look hard enough they will see the blood of the builder, at any rate. I don't think there's a guitar yet that hasn't drawn a bit of blood.

Agreed. "Handmade" is a misnomer. Taken literally, it's a rather ridiculous idea. The phrase isn't "made with non-electrical hand tools," "non-electrical hand tool made," etc. When's the last time a person fell a tree with bare hands and built a guitar from it with the same? Chuck Norris carves guitar necks with Karate chops, but mere mortals need something more. Without my, or someone else's, brain and hands, my bandsaw can't rough-cut a guitar neck. "Handmade" is a subjective term with no single agreed upon definition. Like obscenity, I know it when I see it. The demarcation will likely differ from one person to the next.

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Aaron Craig

I'm personally partial to the definition of handmade that was explained to me by a furniture maker I studied under: Even when machines are used to speed up a process (such as roughing out dovetail pins on a bandsaw) a piece is still legitimately handmade provided the rest of the work that refines and brings the piece together is done with handtools. Generally my viewpoints on this topic are rather liberal. On more than one occasion I have used Stu as an example of what I consider a very modern craftsman. During one phone conversation with him I remarked on removing fractions of a mil during neck fitting with my chisels to which he replied that he fits his by walking in the cut 1/2 mill at a time. To me, studying engineering, learning CAD software, and optimizing CNC cutting paths is as involved as learning to use old methods with hand tools and still requires artistry and skill to achieve the same endpoint. In my own case, it's much more of a mixture. Why? I enjoy working with hand tools and the tactile experience of refining a piece of wood into its final form. I also advertise my approach rather than calling them 100% handmade. There are grey areas, and the best you can do is try to be as honest as you can with your clients and colleagues. If I were to define 100% handmade it would entail every part was refined to its final form using hand tools. There's no shame in referring to certain steps as assembled by hand, although the semantics may be misleading.

Hey, these replies are great, I'm enjoying all the different opinions. I'll add a couple of my own, which is what got me started on this to begin with.

First of all, I read on one guitar maker's site (and unfortunately don't remember which one) a great definition of hand made. Basically, it comes down to whether the hand is needed to guide the tool. This applies the same way for power tools or hand tools. In other words, it is not something that is done by operations where you load a mchine then stand back and watch the part get made. Now that doesn't sound so good for the CNC folks. But I do believe there is skill required in designing the parts so they can be made that way, and in programming the machine. But there is a difference in my mind to inlays for example, of hand cut pieces versus CNC cut pieces. The CNC is definately a lot faster and more consistent. And hey, maybe some day I can afford one myself.

But back to the point, with a couple of eye opener stories. Last year at a festival, an elderly couple were looking at one of my dulcimers, and the Celtic knot I had carved in the head stock. I heard the man tell his wife "he has a CNC machine," to which I spoke up and said "No sir, those are all hand carved." The look on his face made me feel real good, even if it was obvious to me that my hand carving skills are not CNC quality.

Last year at another festival I saw a presentation by a violin maker. It was the first time for me that I got that close to a builder, and he put on a good show, telling about how he liked to carefully work on the scroll to reduce weight. I was mighty impressed, so I hung around to talk after his presentation. I asked him how long it took to carve a scroll, and he just dismissed the question and said "oh, you just buy those," and went on. My opinion changed; should it have?

Now I don't mean to bash the CNC folks, far from it. To me it is another tool that can be used, and if I had one, I'd use it. I think of it as a tool available to the artist to see his creation become reality. Much like I use a word processor.

So I guess as a budding builder who is knew to all this, I have to wonder: just what is it I am bringing to the table when I try to sell an instrument? I figure at least in the early stages, if I can claim that other than the hardware, I made every piece of it, that is something. Maybe not that much, but it may just be all I have at this stage.

I guess the other extreme is the Chrysler commercial back some years ago. I remember it well, Lee Iacocca drives up to the camera and slides to a stop in a brand new Lamborghini, sticks his head out the window, and proudly proclaims "Who has the best performances cars? Chrysler!" This was just after Chrysler bought that Italian company, and he didn't fool me one bit.

_________________
Phil

http://www.oleninstruments.com

"Those who tilt at windmills are only considered insane by those who can't see the dragon."