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Steve,
You made a very good point. I laid out my duct plan and used Pentz's Static Pressure Calculator spread sheet to choose my duct sizing. While I grow tired of fighting a small shop (like Beth the OP), one of the advantages is having all my machines/stations close to the cyclone. My longest run is 15 feet and my main line is low on the wall instead of being up high so that my drops are short too. I hope that everyone installing a dust control system will look at their personal (custom) needs to make intelligent choices. Had I not done so myself, it would have been natural to have used ClearVue's factory stock 6" discharge and lost about 300 CFM of capacity (I got about 1100 CFM) while maintaining about 4100 FPM main duct air velocity.
Ed

I think the hazzards of exposure to fine particles are overemphasized here and especially by Pentz. I am not saying that a clean environment is not a good way to work day in and day out but I wouldn't advocate going to the extremes of measuring particles.

Let me add that I have been involved in measuring and treating respiratory health for 30+ years. This does not allow me to get the final word of course. But I often feel compelled to counter balance some the the things I read regarding the hazzards of wood dust.

Just guessing, that the Pentz site has done more good than harm, and I have seen it progress through the years, evolve and change, and become more commercial. But I sometimes wonder if it is preventing some hobbiests or small shops from making good economical practical decisions. It certainly is increasing the sales of cyclones and the like. Good enough, no harm in that.

I would be willing to bet that no one on this site, or any lutherie site will develop cancer or emphysema or pneumoconiosis from wood or pearl dust. Same with dust from buffers.

A bigger risk for the average hobbiest or everday luthier is developing chronic sinusitis or lower airway sensitivity or hyperreactivity (asthma type conditions) and this is not from the sub micron, fine particles.

My advice then is to try to remove all point source dust as best as possible and economically feasible. Wear a high quality respirator when sanding or using any tool that kicks out dust. Leave it on until the dust clears to the eye. Always wear a respiator that filters fumes when using solvents like lacquer and thinners. And finally to lavage your sinuses often.

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Ken

Hi Beth, I didn't see this until now.
I went to my local HVAC place to by the pipe and fittings. I think the place was called Homan Supply or something like that. They will sell to pretty much anyone. I bought the snap-together pipe, as it was a little cheaper than the spiral pipe. The snap-together stuff was infinitely better than the Home Depot/Lowes stuff. The thing I was careful to get when possible were the seamless round elbows, instead of the flex elbows. The pipe was generally inexpensive...it was the fittings that cost. Todd is certainly correct though about the larger main trunk and drops. My mains are 5" and drops are 4", but it still works decently on the CNC and the thickness sander. My edge sander doesn't collect dust efficiently to begin with, so I need to modify that to work better. I'll post some pictures later.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Pictures of your setup would be great. All of these posts have helped me a lot. The shop isn't framed yet so I've still got a little time to work it all out. Don, do you have your metal ducting grounded? If so, how did you do it?

Perhaps I'm wrong, but since it's all metal and the dust collector is grounded, I see no reason to ground it separately. I'm sure hoping if I'm wrong that someone will jump in (Todd!) and correct me on this.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Something to keep in mind is that the ceiling is about the worst place to hang a filter. Dust settles.

An ideal filtration system would have intake at various spots along the floor and the exhaust pointing down in the ceiling above your dustiest area.

Mario P. made kind of a system like this built into a wall built between studs if I remember correctly.

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

Many shops have dust so thick in the air it is amazing. They should know they have poor air quality but many just ignore it, go on and live with it. Once someone installs a system that improves the situation so that they can no longer see dust in the air, they do not really know what their air quality is at that point. People are spending thousands of dollars on dust collection systems to collect chips and dust (and thousands on shop equipment, and wood, and etc.). I do not see how it is "extreme" to spend $200 to $300 to measure air quality and thereby know how to continue to improve fine dust collection.



They are betting their health which is their wealth, a big bet.



Using a meter helps determine "as best as possible".

Ken,
It appears your air quality standard is "wear a respirator until the dust clears to the eye" and then it is good healthy air to breath unaided. I think your beliefs are close to the middle of the bell curve for woodworkers. Therefore, please do not be concerned that this mass of people will read anything herein and hasten to the "extreme" of measuring air quality and thereby try to improve it. The mass will not do this anytime soon. But a few who recognize the size of their bet and therefore, have this goal can take the steps to do it. These are the ones to whom all my previous comments were written. The cost is usually far less than the other expenditures in this hobby and much less than losing the bet.

In my lifetime there was a point where chip collection and/or dust collection was considered extreme. (A broom was good enough.) There were no provisions on machines for it. “Why do that?”people asked, “we’re doing fine without it.” The bell curve center has slowly moved off of that position and will continue to slowly move towards improvement. I am not on the leading edge or bleeding edge of fine dust control, but the bet is too big for me to be with you in the middle of the bell curve on this issue. I am honestly not trying to bring you with me. We each have to make our own choice.

Ed

Okay Beth, here's some pictures. Please nobody laugh at the mess and tangles of wiring everywhere!
I had a small blockage somewhere in the system a few weeks back (all the more reason for bigger diameter runs) and I was rapping on the pipes here and there to see if I could dislodge it, and when I rapped on the big flex hose on the machine it came off, spewing dust everywhere. I still haven't recovered from that...

Oh Todd, the inlet on the machine is only 5", so it seemed crazy to run pipe at 6" when it would only get stalled at the collector. Was that bad thinking?

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

I'm with you, Ed...it's not the sinuses you have to worry about when you're talking about dust particles small enough to get into the lungs. I think it's important to do the best job possible.

Don...great pictures. I'm such a newbie regarding dust collection that I wasn't sure where to locate the blast gates. Looks like they are at the junction between the main and the drop to a machine. Am I correct in assuming that they concentrate all the air pull to that one machine, and prevent air being drawn through parts of the system not in use?

Yes, exactly. With a collector as small as this one, you really only want to have it drawing from one machine at a time. Otherwise, you completely lose the ability to pull in any dust. So one blast gate per drop. I also sealed up the blast gate edges with silicone caulk, as they can leak. They aren't leak free even so, so minimizing the leaking is key to a good closed system.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Hey Don - Is that the Harbor Freight "2 Hp" dust collector with a Wynn rigid filter upgrade? (I'm thinking of going this route temporarily). Did you remove the stock dual 4" ports to open up to one 5" port at the blower? That appears what you have done and I was curious if that's possible with this machine. How do you like your set up?

Hey Don, I have the exact same room filter like you have. I'll suggest again that anyone that has one of those, find a spot near the floor - under a bench, machine or somewhere near the ground to put it. You'll get a lot more dust out of the air that way.

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

Gil, no that's a Grizzly. But yes, I removed the splitter and went straight in with the 5". I didn't have the cash for an Oneida like I wanted, so this had to suffice. As it was, I upgraded the bags on the machine with the canister. Do I like it? It draws a lot better than I expected it to. So that's good. I wish that I had something that was even more powerful, but for my purposes at this moment in time it suffices. If I were still resawing a lot of tonewood, I would want to get the Oneida and a better engineered duct system.

Andy, I never thought of that! It actually makes some sense. Even better....one high and one low. I know a guy who has one in his small spray booth, and he vents it out to the rest of his shop. It seems to work well for that too.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Thanks Don. I'm thinking of going with the Harbor Freight "2 hp", (it's really 1.5 Hp according to user feedback) since it's on sale for $200. I'll pair it up with a Wynn cartridge filter and run 5" as close to the machines as I can. I want a big cyclone system at some point but just dropped some serious coin on a drum sander so I need to save some money.

Andy I like your idea of putting the air filter on the floor. I have a similar system now with two smaller air filters on the ceiling that get some of the dust as it's made and act as a fan to circulate dust, the rest of which is caught with a large Hunter air purifier that is on the floor (the one Ed recommended). This system seems to work ok.

Woodworkers and luthiers have a MUCH higher risk of developing chronic sinusitis or airway disease (sensitivity) than any remote chance of lung damage from "small particles"! That is my point. Both removing all point source and small floating particles is of course ideal.

Lets pick on Don for a minute because he went out on a limb and showed his shop photos. He has a nice system that does a reasonably well job of removing point source dust. He can really get some work done there especially with that CNC.

Looks like there are piles of dust on top of the hoses and many surfaces of his shop. Maybe not too bad but it is in face dusty down there. Now, brush up against any thing and wiggle those hoses or pick up something with dust and the air between it and your nose fills with dust. Those large particles float while you breath and the nose filters the dust. Some small particles go to the lower airway also. Some travel to the room filter.

Day in and day out, this can lead to chronic sinus problems and or airway sensitivity. Airway sensitivity can be shifted to hyperreactivity of the sinuses and airways. Chronic snowball...It is pretty unavoidable in a woodshop or luthiers shop. This IS the big risk for us, not the very remote chance of some kind of lung tissue disorder.

Just my opinion, I am a health advocate for all of us. Don't ignore my recommendation to lavage your sinuses after the day's work.

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Ken

Sorry Ken, I was not clear when I wrote that. I wasn't meaning to suggest that the sinuses aren't an issue, or that your response was unimportant, but that if we're talking about the particles that are in the smallest size ranges, those can get past the nasal and sinus barriers and in to the lungs. I have not researched to see if there are studies that look at the medical consequences to both upper and lower airways for small shop woodworkers. I think commercial industry has figured out though, that the lungs are at risk if there is improper dust extraction. And I think Don mentioned that right before he took those pictures, he was trying to find a blockage and inadvertently knocked a hose off it's attachment, causing a dust cloud .

The truth is....systems leak, and even though you try to get things like the bags on these units sealed up well, they still leak fine particles out. Yes, I had a big dust bomb of sorts go off, and that is why there is so much dust on things at the moment....BUT aside from that, a table saw and a bandsaw, and an edge sander will lick out so much dust that even a great dust collector will miss a lot of dust that is created. That really fine stuff is the most dangerous of it all, and I'm pretty certain that my air is frequently filled with a lot of it. I'm with Ken...if you have the ability to deal with as much of it as possible, do so. Wear a respirator when you need to, keep the sinuses clean (neti pots are supposed to be great, but can also cause serious problems if there is any bacteria present) and by all means filter the heck out of the air and keep on top of the cleaning.
Right now, my shop is an example of how NOT to keep your shop. Not that I had a lot of say in the matter when that hose came off....

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

...but that if we're talking about the particles that are in the smallest size ranges, those can get past the nasal and sinus barriers and in to the lungs. I have not researched to see if there are studies that look at the medical consequences to both upper and lower airways for small shop woodworkers. I think commercial industry has figured out though, that the lungs are at risk if there is improper dust extraction.

Beth, I am still trying to make my point. No fault of yours, I must not be communicating clearly.

Small particles are not a big hazard to long term health.

I have researched this. And have years of experience measuring the consequences of lung exposures. I will try to make my point again. There seems to be an emphasis that there are harmful small particles that must, at all cost, be scrubbed from the air we breathe.

Don made my point stating that it is not really practical. There are blow outs and hand sanding and wood dust is a way of life for a woodworker.

That's it, I am done.

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Ken

Don,
ClearVue (and others) was careful to point out that it was critical to not any any leaks between the blower and the final filters. And that if there was a leak the blower would blow dust out the air leak prior to reaching the filter. I worked very carefully to seal everything well. I ended up have one small leak that I was able to detect by the air monitor. Once I found the leak I was able to easily seal it with metalized tape. After that, when I turn on the dust collection the air quality in the shop improves as evidenced by the monitor. However, due to the heat and noise put off by the dust collector, this is not a practical way to clean the shop air. My little cheap Hunter HEPA filter does this very well in my small shop. My point was, you need not accept that "system leak". They do not leak when one is persistent and careful to stop all the leaks. Once done, I have never had another start. Again, I was careful in the construction. In truth, sysems do not have to leak.


Don,
Just like "system leaks", when one has a good collector and works carefully it is not true that these machines will "lick out so much dust that even a great dust collector will miss a lot of dust that is created". I appeal to you that many have settled for this situation and one's mindset is what is allowing the dust to be kicked out. I have not accepted a belief that any machine has to be a major contribution of dust into the shop. Now, I am not talking about perfection here and zero dust, but I find that almost all of it is collected in my system. I would guess 99% or more. If you go to the bandsaw example I posted, you'll see an approach that yields zero dust below the table of the bandsaw which is where I venture to say you get most of your bandsaw dust into the room. The ONLY dust I get from my bandsaw is from above the table. And I capture most of the dust above the table too. My bandsaw is not a messy machine at all.

I seldom use a tablesaw and do not have one set up permanently in my shop. But I have a well sealed TS machine (my doing) with full 6" dust connection (my doing) which pulls the air down from outside the top around the blade into the machine then to the collector. Then I put a 4" hose on the table top. With this much air there is little mess. Occasionally some heavier chips may get ejected but not much light fine dust. The TS does not make much mess.

I have a combo 8" disk and 4"x36" belt sander. I use 3 each 4" collection points on this. One on the dust port on the machine and two right on either side of the point where the sanding is happening. There are no piles of dust when I use this machine. I have it rigged so that I can easilty move 2 of the 3 hoses from the disk to the belt very quickly and easily with not tools. It takes me about 15 seconds to do this. There is no visible dust in the air right at the machine or elsewhere. It is not perfect and some dust escapes, but not large quantities.

It is so true that "whether a man believes he can or believes he can't, he is right". I so encourage you to change your mind about what is possible to do for dust collection at each of your operations.

My intent in this writing was/is only to encourage you.

Ed

Ed, I can fully appreciate what you're saying, but with my collector that's simply not practical. It is not capable of that level of extraction. I'm limited by the design of the collector as well as the size of my pipe runs. I also have a contractor table saw with an open frame as many have, and what doesn't get sucked down through into the hose ends up coming off the top of the saw or out the back. If you had an edge sander like mine, you might also understand how much dust comes off of it and how quickly. My collector can't grab it fast enough, and sander doesn't have a good design to capture it either.

And that darn "L" is right next to the "K".... I meant to type "...kick out the dust..." rather than "...lick out the dust...".

Still, my point is...you're not going to catch it all with a system like mine. It's not humanly possible. A bigger, better, more powerful system? Perhaps. Certainly a lot more than what I can do with mine. But I can't afford the cost of a big Oneida or other, and I don't have the ceiling height for it either. Perhaps in my next shop, in my next life...

I do appreciate the encouragement, and will have to try to find some ways of capturing more, but as I said my collector isn't the greatest.

Cheers!



Augmentation / Edit:

Ed and I had a nice conversation off-line about this, and he is right about the attitude of going in to a thought process believing that something is impossible, as you will never try to achieve the desired results if you believe that way. He's 100% correct on that, and has given me food for thought about what sort of things I might be able to do to make my setup more efficient than it is. My big issues are the nature of the tools themselves and how they are used, so I will need to find alternatives to how the tools were engineered for dust collection by the manufacturers. I'm starting to see that it's more of an afterthought for them.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

This is an awesome thread thanks for all the info here.

Going to hijack it since it seems done but a little relevant.

I'm also planning a new shop set up in the future. I was thinking of making a two room set up with one room with those 4 ft ventilation fans in one wall and another out the other a putti the dust machines in the "vent room" and doing a small ventilation in the non dust room. I'll mostly do my hand tooling, storing, planning in the non dust room. Think this is a viable set up? What's the problem in thinking this? I know it will be cold in the winter and thought about different ways to deal with this. But this is about the only problem I can come out with in this situation. Thanks in advance.

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