Official Luthiers Forum!

Hey Todd - What about the V-system 3000? It's about $400 cheaper and seems more than adequate for a small one-man shop. http://www.oneida-air.com/inventoryD.as ... 39H&CatId={883C6AA7-4C85-49FD-9EEA-C51D09DC8B19}. Do you have any experience with it?

Hey John - I have two of the smaller Jet ceiling hanging air filtration systems and I have learned from trial and error about placement. You want it somewhere near the middle of the shop and have the filter side facing your tools (where you will be making most of the dust). The fan side really blows out some air so if you have it flipped where the fan side is facing your tools then it blows around alot of dust. I learned this the hard way!

John,
Is the ceiling mounted unit HEPA rated? If not, can it be retrofited to become such?
Ed

Ok, thanks!

+1 on the Super Gorilla - they are worth the cost.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Ed,

The one I have is a Delta 50-860. It is an older model that I picked up at a garage sale.

It isn’t HEPA rated. It has a pre filter that is supposed to get dust as large as 5 microns and an internal bag filter that will filter dust down to 1 micron.


Gil,

Thanks for the placement tips. It gives me something to think about before I hang it. I suppose I might end up doing a bit of the trial and error part until I get it right. But based on your advice, my original location will be a good place to start.

John

Ed, thanks for these great points. Just a note about the air monitor that you linked to. It looks like the DC1100 Pro will be better suited for the work shop as it has a lower sensitivity (down to 0.5 micron). I think I'll get one...

http://www.dylosproducts.com/wocrandshair.html
http://www.dylosproducts.com/ornodcproair.html

This thread has sparked my interest to do some research on dust collection. I have been reading Bill Pentz's textbook-like website and it's a great resource loaded with information. On his home page, line F.4. he states "If we choose to vent inside, then the medical experts recommend use ASHRAE certified 0.5-micron fine filters. The filter makers recommend that at typical dust levels from woodworking we need at least one square foot of filter area for every two CFM of airflow. This means a typical 1.5 hp dust collector that moves a real 600 CFM airflow really needs a 300 square foot filter. It also means the recommended 1000 CFM for good fine dust collection requires at least 500 square feet of filter material." http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm

I noticed that the ClearVue systems use two 300 sqft filters for 600 sqft total which would be more than adequate if following Pentz's guideline. http://www.clearvuecyclones.com/9-cv1800-series. However the larger Oneida systems only have a single 110 sqft filter. http://www.oneida-air.com/inventoryD.as ... 05H&CatId={7F6C8978-92E8-4902-9A37-D8A254EDF4FC}. Todd, or anyone care to comment on the effectiveness of the filter on the Oneida systems?

Not sure where the 1 sq. ft. per 2 CFM comes from so cannot comment on that. Common sense would dictate that the smaller the particle that a filter can catch then the greater the area must be to pass the same CFM. One would also need to factor in the number of particles that are expected to reach the filter. I deal with a lot of cooling air flow and filtration issues as part of my design responsibilities but I'm an electrical engineer; a mechanical engineer should have more information on this subject.

If I look at the filter efficiency data from Oneida I see a greater than 99.9% efficiency at capturing particles to 0.5 micron. In my experience with cooling systems if the filter media is not sized correctly then it restricts flow. I have corresponded with the Oneida engineers several times on other issues and they obviously know what they're doing. I suppose I have a tendency to trust that Oneida is not going to introduce a filter that won't allow sufficient CFM to pass. It's just not in their interest. Since I work in a manufacturing R&D department, I do however have no doubt they have very carefully considered all of the tradeoffs to keep their manufacturing costs down. Perhaps I need to get an air quality monitor to see for myself.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Good points Steve. I ordered one of the Dylos air quality monitors. If you don't end up getting one remind me if I come visit and I'll bring it.

Sounds good to me. Probably the best way to see what's really going on.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Good catch, Gil. I have the DC1100 Pro in my shop. I have spent some significant time improving my dust collection at various dust creating activities in my shop and the DC1100 Pro gives very good feedback as to how successful or unsuccessful I am. (For example, here is what I did on my bandsaw which worked very well. viewtopic.php?f=10117&t=34557 Having 7" main line on my ClearVu allowed me to have 3 each 4" collection points on the bandsaw with all pulling at full capacity.)

If I do create dust that gets into the air, the monitor also shows how quickly (when) my system brings it back down to a healthy breathing air quality.

Having a monitor is the only way that I know of to actually know what is going on regarding shop breathing air quality, my main purpose of good dust collection effectiveness.

Ed - I like what you did with the three band saw points. Great ideas there. I have the DC1100 pro on the way. I think I will not like the initial readings it tells me! I also got one of the air purifiers you suggested and have had it running in my shop for a few days now. I can tell a noticeable difference in the air quality. The air feels cleaner and not as thick. Next purchase is a ClearVue (gulp $$$!). Which model Clearvue do you have? Do you use the 6" to 4" transitions that ClearVue sells? It seems that these would not be Bill Pentz approved so I am curious how they work.

Gil,

No, I do not use the the 6" to 4" transitions that ClearVue sells. I used a metal duct system which was a lot cheaper in my area than plastic and a lot higher capacity than the 6" ClearVue sells.

Since the original capacity ClearVue will easily handle 7" main lines I pulled the 6" round discharge off the ClearVue and replaced it with a metal 7" discharge. I paid about $33 for this improved capacity custom transition at a sheet metal shop. (After pulling of the 6" ClearVue transition I measured the actual cyclone rectangular outlet and found that area was equal to 7" diameter area.)

I put 7" drops down from the 7" main using 7"x7"x7" wyes. Then off the drop I used a 7"x6"x4" wye which obviously yields one 6" connection and one 4" connection. For several machines these two sizes were enough connections. For the bandsaw I attached another 6"x4"x4" wye. So this gave me 2 more 4" connections in addition to the one 4" that was on the first wye in the drop - for a total of 3 each 4" connections that run the full capacity that a 4" can handle. Notice that folks that run a 6" main off the ClearVue will typically run only 2 each 4" connections. The 7" main gives you 3 instead of 2 each 4", or 1 each 6" and 1 each 4". This is a BIG difference and big advantage to get my money's worth out of what the ClearVue will do without going to the now largest more expensive ClearVue. All this means you need to run metal 7" spiral duct instead of 6" plastic sewer pipe.

I am not surprised that you are already seeing a big improvement by using the HEPA unit 24/7 in your shop. If you stir up the air somehow (I use a ceiling fan 24/7 in my small shop) then your air will even be cleaner.

If you work each dust creating operation thoughtfully you'll be rewarded with more healthy breathing air as shown by the monitor. Good luck.

Ed

John Killin,

It seems you can get much better filters for your Delta air cleaner at a reasonable price from Wynn Environmental as well. Not quite HEPA, but better than stock...

Ed - That's some serious duct work you have. I will give the 7" duct some consideration as I am planning my system. I am thinking the 6" to two 4" connections that ClearVue sells will restrict flow too much to exceed OSHA standard, it might meet it, but I want European medical (I have dust allergies).

As you plan your duct system keep in mind that the diameter needs to be sized so that the velocity in the duct is sufficient to keep the dust moving. Example, I could only run 7" for about 8' then had to reduce to 6".

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I just purchased one of the Dylos particle monitors. It arrived yesterday & I did a quick check around the house. My shop is the most particle-free room in the house! Four to 8 times more particles everywhere else. I run one of the Jet hanging filters for a few hours after making any dust in my shop.
Looks like I need the HEPA upstairs more than in the shop.

Thanks, Ed, for the tip.

Steve,
You made a very good point. I laid out my duct plan and used Pentz's Static Pressure Calculator spread sheet to choose my duct sizing. While I grow tired of fighting a small shop (like Beth the OP), one of the advantages is having all my machines/stations close to the cyclone. My longest run is 15 feet and my main line is low on the wall instead of being up high so that my drops are short too. I hope that everyone installing a dust control system will look at their personal (custom) needs to make intelligent choices. Had I not done so myself, it would have been natural to have used ClearVue's factory stock 6" discharge and lost about 300 CFM of capacity (I got about 1100 CFM) while maintaining about 4100 FPM main duct air velocity.
Ed

I think the hazzards of exposure to fine particles are overemphasized here and especially by Pentz. I am not saying that a clean environment is not a good way to work day in and day out but I wouldn't advocate going to the extremes of measuring particles.

Let me add that I have been involved in measuring and treating respiratory health for 30+ years. This does not allow me to get the final word of course. But I often feel compelled to counter balance some the the things I read regarding the hazzards of wood dust.

Just guessing, that the Pentz site has done more good than harm, and I have seen it progress through the years, evolve and change, and become more commercial. But I sometimes wonder if it is preventing some hobbiests or small shops from making good economical practical decisions. It certainly is increasing the sales of cyclones and the like. Good enough, no harm in that.

I would be willing to bet that no one on this site, or any lutherie site will develop cancer or emphysema or pneumoconiosis from wood or pearl dust. Same with dust from buffers.

A bigger risk for the average hobbiest or everday luthier is developing chronic sinusitis or lower airway sensitivity or hyperreactivity (asthma type conditions) and this is not from the sub micron, fine particles.

My advice then is to try to remove all point source dust as best as possible and economically feasible. Wear a high quality respirator when sanding or using any tool that kicks out dust. Leave it on until the dust clears to the eye. Always wear a respiator that filters fumes when using solvents like lacquer and thinners. And finally to lavage your sinuses often.

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Ken

Hi Beth, I didn't see this until now.
I went to my local HVAC place to by the pipe and fittings. I think the place was called Homan Supply or something like that. They will sell to pretty much anyone. I bought the snap-together pipe, as it was a little cheaper than the spiral pipe. The snap-together stuff was infinitely better than the Home Depot/Lowes stuff. The thing I was careful to get when possible were the seamless round elbows, instead of the flex elbows. The pipe was generally inexpensive...it was the fittings that cost. Todd is certainly correct though about the larger main trunk and drops. My mains are 5" and drops are 4", but it still works decently on the CNC and the thickness sander. My edge sander doesn't collect dust efficiently to begin with, so I need to modify that to work better. I'll post some pictures later.

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Pictures of your setup would be great. All of these posts have helped me a lot. The shop isn't framed yet so I've still got a little time to work it all out. Don, do you have your metal ducting grounded? If so, how did you do it?

Perhaps I'm wrong, but since it's all metal and the dust collector is grounded, I see no reason to ground it separately. I'm sure hoping if I'm wrong that someone will jump in (Todd!) and correct me on this.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Something to keep in mind is that the ceiling is about the worst place to hang a filter. Dust settles.

An ideal filtration system would have intake at various spots along the floor and the exhaust pointing down in the ceiling above your dustiest area.

Mario P. made kind of a system like this built into a wall built between studs if I remember correctly.

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

Many shops have dust so thick in the air it is amazing. They should know they have poor air quality but many just ignore it, go on and live with it. Once someone installs a system that improves the situation so that they can no longer see dust in the air, they do not really know what their air quality is at that point. People are spending thousands of dollars on dust collection systems to collect chips and dust (and thousands on shop equipment, and wood, and etc.). I do not see how it is "extreme" to spend $200 to $300 to measure air quality and thereby know how to continue to improve fine dust collection.



They are betting their health which is their wealth, a big bet.



Using a meter helps determine "as best as possible".

Ken,
It appears your air quality standard is "wear a respirator until the dust clears to the eye" and then it is good healthy air to breath unaided. I think your beliefs are close to the middle of the bell curve for woodworkers. Therefore, please do not be concerned that this mass of people will read anything herein and hasten to the "extreme" of measuring air quality and thereby try to improve it. The mass will not do this anytime soon. But a few who recognize the size of their bet and therefore, have this goal can take the steps to do it. These are the ones to whom all my previous comments were written. The cost is usually far less than the other expenditures in this hobby and much less than losing the bet.

In my lifetime there was a point where chip collection and/or dust collection was considered extreme. (A broom was good enough.) There were no provisions on machines for it. “Why do that?”people asked, “we’re doing fine without it.” The bell curve center has slowly moved off of that position and will continue to slowly move towards improvement. I am not on the leading edge or bleeding edge of fine dust control, but the bet is too big for me to be with you in the middle of the bell curve on this issue. I am honestly not trying to bring you with me. We each have to make our own choice.

Ed