Official Luthiers Forum!

"Moon wood makes better tonewood" or the "best" or "more resonant" or any variation is unproven. In the world of violinmaking where Moonwood is also marketed, there is no correlation to it and successful makers. Defining success as those who have a wait list of real orchestra players or soloists. It is a silly notion anyway! wood is made of cells that formulated over hundreds of years before it was even harvested. Low density, high strength wood results in a distinctive sound for many contexts including orchestra violins, soloist violins and mandolins and likely some guitars also. It would really only apply to a measure that has a way to prove value as in bluegrass music or classical guitars.

That is one problem in the guitar world. There seems to be a moving target to define good guitars and good makers. Irvin Somogyi is a fantastic artist! He might even have a wait list for his artistic guitars that sound wonderfull, jangly and full, I don't know. But quite frankly he has no measure for making a good guitar! He doesn't compete in a real market seeking a certain type of instrument for sound.


Now if Mario Proilx were to say that moonwood or any certain type of wood results in something then I would listen. Because he competes in a real competive market with musicians requiring a certain sound and volume.

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Ken

What? Not only is Ervin a great luthier who builds guitars that are exceptional, but many great musicians have played/play somogyi's: what are talking about?

I have no dispute whatsoever with what you wrote. As a matter of fact if you read what you quoted, it almost mirrors my statement. I guess it is going to be hard to understand.

What is your real name Oval Soundhole?

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Ken

Assuming you weren't being sarcastic it seems that your saying Ervin can't build a guitar, and his guitars don't compete on any sort of level. I probably misinterpreted what you wrote.

If you look on the info area under my username, you can see that my name is Brian.

You're pompous. Just because I can't solve your "riddle" off the top of my head or at all doesn't negate decades of scientific testing. Nor does it render me impotent to form an opinion or prove that I know nothing about the subject. The theory of relativity has been proven reliable. To say otherwise is pompous.

"Moon Wood" on the other hand.....

If you're pompous enough to argue with your professors over a rigorously tested and reliable scientific formulation then I can see why Moon wood makes sense to you, as likely does ESP, telekineses, and telepathy. Do they?

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Old growth, shmold growth!

I get to choose what I consider...and I have a finite amount of time on this planet so I'm unwilling to invest too much of it considering implausible theories. That's a choice I make. Calling people "narrow minded" is a judgement you make. Rather than making judgments make a point. If you can make the idea of timing wood harvests to the tides for some practical reason seem plausible....make an argument to that effect. On it's face it would appear to me that there are far too many variables to isolate to ever be able to form a valid conclusion on the subject such that any practical processes might be developed and applied to wood harvesting.

This leads me to once again ask why Mr. Somogyi would write an article that benefits no one. I can't garner or construe ANYTHING from the 'facts' presented in the article that could be practically applied by a builder seeking to improve his instruments...or by a buyer seeking to become more informed on a purchase. And that comes NOT from a lack of imagination or a narrow mind. It comes from a notable lack of salient, useful content.

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I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic

Not true Zlurgh, Somogyi gave an important clue in the article. He stated that he selects his topwood by seeking light stiff wood only. Then he failed to mention that he has any moonwood or has ever used it himself. If he had he would have stated how responsive the individual instruments were. So he actualy did us the favor of saving the trouble and expense or any further thought regarding moonwood.

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Ken

This leads me to once again ask why Mr. Somogyi would write an article that benefits no one.

The late, great Dale Earnhardt, when asked if it bothered him that the crowd's booing was nearly as loud as the cheering whenever he was being introduced at a race track, responded simply with: "as long as they make noise when they hear my name, I don't care if it's a boo or a cheer!"

Or put another way: there's no such thing as 'bad publicity'. It all serves to keep the name "out there", and fresh in people's minds, and of course, there will be a reader or three that will read the article and want "more", thereby selling a few more books to help the 'ol 401(k) along....

Now, if we wanted to debate whether or not a tree's harvest time influences the wood's physical traits, we should ask if felling trees in winter, spring, summer or fall is best. If anyone believes that the slight gravitational change of the moon's cycles can affect the final traits of the wood, the effect of seasonal changes ought to be huge. Yet, other than affecting drying time, I don't believe any studies(and there have been many) have found significant differences in the end product(the dry wood).

As for moi, for the past week, I've been "shuffling" my tonewood stacks, which is something I try to do at least once a year. I literally shuffle my stacks of tops, then late at night, when I'm most relaxed and at my "artistic" peak for the day, I go through the stacks, flexing, bouncing, tapping, and looking. I might scribble a note on this top or that one if something "grabs me", whether good or bad, and in the end, I re-stack them in a certain order that only makes sense to me... <lol> If nothing else, it keeps my senses fresh, and reminds me of what I have in stock, and perhaps what I need to start looking to bring-in, or to cut(I still have dozens of split billets for 2001 and 2003 that haven't yet been re-sawn into tops). Methinks taking an evening or two to do the above once or twice a year would be more informative for anyone on this forum than reading all the books ever written on the subject of lutherie.

Sound like great therapy, I’ll give it a try.

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Say what you do, Do what you say.

The problem with "greatness" in people is that they, themselves, tend to start believing in it. Extending to areas where they are not so well qualified. Adopting strange ideas. A good example is highly respected actors suddenly becoming political or religious. Like anyone really cares.

To certain degree, we all hold strange ideas. For whatever reason. "Greatness" allows some folks to share those ideas. Whatever. Sure is not worth getting into fights about it here.

Mike

I have no empirical data to back it up but I agree with what Mario said above. I have processed trees harvested in all seasons and the end product is difficult to distinguish. The wood I handle, harvested from a small geographical area, displays very similiar density and stiffness regardless of what season it was harvested in. Again I have not taken lots of detailed measurements but when I do I find the values of density and stiffness similiar, regardless of when the trees were harvested. I too sit in the camp that these great trees have a slow metabolic process. In spruce trees the outer perimetre is "alive". The inner core is dead. When I spit and process trees I find that almost all of the moisture is contained in the sap wood, where almost all of the nutrient transfer occurs along the length of the tree. As the sap wood turns to heartwood the moisture levels significantly decrease. There is great disparity between moisture levels in the sap wood (outer 2" or so) and the rest of a spruce tree. When I process I remove the sapwood (a process done in sitka and it's hybrids only) so I remove that moisture.

As to tidal influences. I think we all know that tide cycles are indeed based on the moons gravitational pull and that roughly once a month there is a higher and lower (greater change) tide. And I think we also know that the tidal daily variance also changes through the year. In our area the winter will have the greater tidal variance were the tide can change 24 feet in six hours. The other interesting thing about tides is that they are a "tide", like a wave. So the time of high tide for instance is at a different time of the day as you move through any region. All of this leads me to believe that the prospect of "moonwood" is just another great marketing ploy. I don't doubt that those that harvest, process and sell this wood truly believe that harvest time has an effect but again, if it does, I believe one could never measure it. I also think that we would feel the significance of tidal (or lunar) pull much more than a tree would as our metabolic rate are so much higher.

Shane

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Canada

Well ya...the question has been rhetorical from the beginning of the thread. Somogyi is entrenching his guruship with the article...nothing more. His talent ought to stand alone but these sideshows bother me because they trivialize his talent. I complimented Kevin Ryan on a recent write-up in Guitar Aficionado. Kevin replied, "ya...fooled 'em again"...which reflects a sincere humility that characterizes great men....imo.

In any case...I wish I had half of the talent of either man...so much talent. And sometimes a man should get out of his own way.

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I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic

I'm pretty sure..." fooled 'em again " is a quote from the big mon, Bill Monroe.

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Regards from RangeView, Bill

It seems to me that every generation of elite scholars assumes it knows what it knows, and that its heavily entrenched ideas(as facts) could never be overturned, only to have many of these dearly clung to tenets... held dear throughout decades, generations or centuries overturned in the blink of an eye - by a new understanding that emerges seemingly overnight..... and quite often by complete accident....
what does this have to do with werewood? potentially nothing.... mabye everything...
Im not defending or disputing the idea but place it firmly in the unresolved category....
partially because we dont even really know that much about the moon IMHO (or I should rather say ...theres ALOT more we Could know about the moon,... to be more accurate.)
There seems to be alot of Somogyi ripping lately...I havent really read more than sparse articles by him, and only infrequently so Im not sure what these attitudes are in regards to...
I can understand if someone disagrees with someone else - but the nature of alot of the comments I have been hearing border on downright hostility...
thats not specifically pointing towards any one, or any one comment in this thread or any other, but rather an impression I have gleaned over the last little while - reading topics whenever his name seems to come up....
I dont remember the author of the quote (looked it up > Authur Stanley Eddington)
"The world is not only stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we can imagine"
Its a "tenet" I try to live by... mabye someday it will be overturned.....
and we will know exactly everything about everything and then there will be no more quarrel...
until then, Cheers
Charliewood

So what mysteries about the moon are there?

Where's the man? I've never been able to spot him.

The man in the moon is a Newfie....


http://youtu.be/cWuHOq0-OXo

there are plenty of things not known about the moon...

what's in it...is there any water on it...etc...a big one which comes to mind is just exactly where did it come from...without it life as we know it would not exist...it creates a gyroscopic effect which stabilizes our planet, creates regular seasons, and creates the tides...

I find it very interesting that for all practical purposes the rotational period of the moon is 1 rotation for every revolution around the earth...that's right, only one side of the moon is ever seen by man...

The video doesn't work for me. And i so wanted to see him, too.

There are plenty of mysteries about the moon - for one there are moving lights that appear to rise descend in and out of craters and move across the surface of the moon - these (thousands of instances of lunar light anomolies) have been seen and verified by leading scientists, going back a century or more... not just a conspiratorial fairtale.
Also there is wide conjecture about how much of the moon core is hollow.... when the Apollo 12 launched its ascent stage from its lift off booster and it hit the moons surface, it rang like a bell for over an hour.(this according to NASA seismic recording equip)
Also the mean density of the moon is 3.34 gr/cc whereas the earths mean density is 5.4 gr/cc - this density difference implies that the moon has no solid core potentially, or at the very least has large negative mascons in its interior
ALso there is the fact that the moon is widely believed to be dated about 4.5 billion yrs old and rocks have been found on the surface that date to 5.3 billion years old whereas the earth appears to be 3.5 billion years old at most - where did the moon come from? And how did it get trapped in our orbit?
Mysteries.....
Also - the geology of the moon is vastly different from earth being rather devoid of iron whereas the earth is abundant in iron,,,, .
I think the question of whether there is water on the moon has been answered in the affirmative if Im not mistaken....
These and many many other questions about the moon remain unanswered - why we never returned after spending billions and billions to get there in the first place is prolly the biggest mystery.... specially developed modules created to reach and land on the moon costing over a billion dollars sat rotting after the initial landing.... the soviets likewise abandoned all moon landing plans after the initial moon landing .... even though they had invested fortunes into reaching the moon surface - what did they find up there?
why did they abandon the moon surface plans that so captured the imaginations of the world - remember moon homes, in moon bases, in moon cities werent we going to be living there by now? moon pies is all we got out of the deal...
Anyway
Cheers
charliewood

Ok, fair enough...but I could construct a scenario wherein Moonpies optimized the density of certain top woods...and then write an article.

The difference would be that mine was funny on purpose.

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I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic

That's interesting stuff, Charlie. I wasn't aware of most of that. Thanks for posting it.

I do wonder how they determine the density of the moon as I'd imagine it would be difficult to weight.

I guess it's true that behind every successful person there lies a pack of haters. So whether prevoking exactly this type of thought and dialog was his goal or he is simply giggling himself to sleep at night because of it I don't know but either way he has my utmost respect. For insight on his sense of humor you should read the piece he did in Guitarmaker on advertising if you haven't already.

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Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

Brian, It's too easy to use the term "haters" to describe someone who just disagrees with you.
And Somogyi, whatever his personal qualities and abilities as a luthier, is prone to making controversial statements, which many will disagree with.
It's not hating to disagree with someone rather than seeing him as a Guru.