Official Luthiers Forum!

Most interesting, Charlie - thanks for the reminder.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

The concept of buying this from a guy in the Wal Mart parking lot that would only take cash just makes me chuckle . I actually bought this one from an attorney that had it taken down because it was dropping walnuts on customer cars . It was already felled when I first saw it .

For crying out loud , the backhoe was barely able to pick it up and load it .
These are making me smile as well .

Holy Smokes Richard!!!! That is one BIG walnut tree!

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jw ( o)===:::

Some very nice wood has come from this tree . I was fortunate to get it .

Reminds me that someone gave me a handful of old ivory piano keys not long ago to use for inlay material on special projects. Guess I need to do this right, and find me some BR to put it in, whada ya think?

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Phil

http://www.oleninstruments.com

"Those who tilt at windmills are only considered insane by those who can't see the dragon."

I completely agree with your overall point. This didn't help narrow any issues. I actually think most lawyers would agree completely with that point. Where you're more apt to run into trouble is with this abdication idea. A settlement like this doesn't abdicate the executive power of those charged with prosecution to "determin[e] [] what is legal and what is not . . . ." No such power exists. It is emphatically the role of the court to say what the law is (to paraphrase Justice Marshall). Which of course begs the question of how that's possible if we assume these cases will always settle.

The big picture you seem to be missing though is what happens if your premise were taken as true (i.e., prosecutors may never settle). What does that even mean? Would a prosecutor have to bring first degree murder charges in every homicide case even if second degree murder or manslaughter would be more appropriate. Are you advocating that Gibson should be forced to litigate the case to the end? I'm sure Martin and Taylor wouldn't have minded that result (at least until they are in the crosshairs).

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Aaron Craig

From an article in Music Trades:

‘Sending a SWAT Team to Collect a Parking Ticket’
Andrew Vaughan
|
08.10.2012
Brian T. Majeski has written a thoughtful and considered editorial on Gibson’s settlement with the Department of Justice for the esteemed industry monthly, Music Trades.

Majeski writes: “Gibson's agreement to pay $350,000 to settle with the Department of Justice over alleged Lacey Act violations prompted a flood of press releases from environmental groups, lawmakers, and U.S. wood manufacturers. In unison, they hailed the settlement as a win for the world's forests, a blow against slave labor, a victory for American jobs, and a triumph of diligent law enforcement. The actual settlement agreement, jointly signed by justice officials and the Gibson legal team, paints a far different picture. Presenting facts both sides agree on, it depicts overzealous and poorly informed enforcement officials in hot pursuit of a company that was trying in good faith to comply with contradictory foreign statutes. It also inadvertently sums up all that is wrong with the Lacey Act provision that holds U.S. firms criminally liable for violations of foreign laws.

“Suspecting a Lacey Act violation, in 2009, the Environmental Crimes unit of the Justice Department, aided by the FBI and Fish and Wildlife service, raided Gibson's Nashville factory and seized pallets of ebony fingerboard blanks that had been imported from Madagascar. In 2006, Madagascar issued an edict banning the export of unfinished ebony, and two years later had further restricted ebony exports, so the DOJ felt they had a strong case. On closer reading of Madagascar law, however, the case started to unravel. The order banning "unfinished" ebony contained a provision specifically permitting the export of guitar fingerboards, though it didn't specify whether ‘fingerboard’ meant rough blanks, blanks with fret slots and inlay pockets, or fully finished, fretted fingerboards.

“Upon banning ebony exports in 2008, the Madagascar government simultaneously issued licenses permitting select forest operators to legally ship wood that had been cut previously. The DOJ acknowledges that Gibson's ebony came from a logger who had obtained one of the coveted export licenses. Documents seized during the raid also showed that Gibson had acquired the wood from a Forest Stewardship Council certified broker, who had provided ample assurances that it was in compliance with all relevant statutes. So, the DOJ case against Gibson came down to how Madagascar officials defined ‘fingerboard,’ and the validity of documents filed at various points in the supply chain.
“The charges arising from the 2011 Department of Justice raid, when DOJ seized Indian rosewood fingerboard blanks from plants in Memphis and Nashville, were even flimsier. The DOJ claimed that the wood was "unprocessed" under Indian law and unlawful to export because it was several millimeters too thick. The Indian Foreign Trade office, along with several local industry groups, pushed back immediately and said that the DOJ had misread the law, noting that millions of similar fingerboard blanks had been exported without issue over the past three decades to guitar makers around the world.

“Faced with such a potent rebuke, the DOJ returned the seized rosewood and gave Gibson the green light to continue importing it as they had in the past. So three years and two armed raids later, the Justice Department admitted that Gibson did nothing wrong in importing Indian rosewood, and "may have" violated some unspecified Madagascar statutes. This ‘may have’ cost Gibson $350,000 in fines, the loss of wood valued at $261,000, and $2.4 million in legal fees. Not to mention the costs associated with disruptions in production and having its reputation tarred by a government agency. Furthermore, the DOJ apparently used its limitless resources and the threat of ongoing prosecution to coerce Gibson to settle. Both sides apparently won: Gibson limited its legal expenses, and the DOJ was spared the potential embarrassment of trying to make its case in court.

“The biggest argument against the amended Lacey Act is that it holds U.S. companies liable for violations of the laws of all the world's 200 countries. But, if the U.S. Department of Justice, the arbiter of right and wrong, has a demonstrated problem grasping the nuance of foreign law, is it fair to hold private enterprises like Gibson to a higher standard? Furthermore, should arguments over how Madagascar defines a fingerboard be elevated to criminal status? In comprehensive coverage of the settlement within the September issue of ‘The Music Trades,’ Gibson CEO Henry Juszkiewicz rightly states, ‘We feel that Gibson was inappropriately targeted [in] a matter that could have been addressed with a simple contact by a caring human being representing the government.’ Instead, the government used violent and hostile means with the full force of the U.S. government and several armed law enforcement agencies costing the taxpayer millions of dollars.
“But what's worst about this case is how an unlikely coalition of environmental groups, U.S. wood manufacturers (whose wood consumption dwarfs that of the music industry) and the Department of Justice can transform the use of raw coercion on flimsy legal grounds into some kind of a victory. For anyone who thinks our assessment is overly harsh, we suggest they go to Gibson’s website where they can read the Department of Justice settlement for themselves.

“There is no argument against proper stewardship of finite wood resources. However, there is something wrong about abandoning basic concepts of due process, proportionality, and creating scapegoats in the name of even a worthy cause.”

Boils down to pure poppycock .
It appears that due diligence was exercised and it added up to less than 0 . My mistake . It added up to a $500,000.00 loss for exercising due diligence .
As one that has been through a similar situation at my home a few years back , albeit on a much smaller scale , I only wish that Gibson had fought this as I did my situation . Sometimes , you just need to make a stand regardless of the costs .

That's the most intellectually honest piece I've read on the Gibson case! Thanks for posting it, David. The last sentences sums it up well IMO.

The Gibson raids had absolutely nothing to do with preventing illegal logging. And unfortunately, the environmental groups who praise the action against Gibson have no interest in protecting US businesses.

Ver-r-ry interesting David. That runs somewhat counte to some of the things you and others have been posting, but makes sense too. One thing becomes clearer all the time: the Lacey extension is stupid law that will need to be changed. It's just a question of what it's going to cost, and who's going to pay to do it.

I think it can be done, we just need to be vigilant.

The National Association of Rocketry managed to get Ammonium Perchlorate Composite Propellant removed from the ATF explosive list. It used to be if you wanted a motor with more than 62 grams of propellant you had to obtain a low explosives permit, which is difficult and time consuming to get (not to mention regular inspection from the ATF). It took a while but they finally got the courts to get the ATF to unlist it because they were able to prove that APCP had no explosive potential.

The music and luthier community is much larger than rocketry and pyrotechnic community combined.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

To give some perspective....
Back when I was doing repair for a large music store, Musical Merchandise Review magazine had a money total for the entire music business in that fiscal year. One of my clients managed a Target store, and he had the printouts for the entire corporation of the same year.

Target sold more M&M/Mars products in one year than the whole of the American music industry.
The American public buying music products is around 8% of the total population.

Maybe we have the muscle to get something done.... maybe we don't. I hope so!

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Well since the RELIEF Act fell over, from where I am sitting it looks like you don't. Either you don't, or the muscle was not flexed enough! Something has to change or nothing will happen, especially when US Wood manufactures, environmentalists, and law makers support the settlement and oppose any changes.

Peter

I guess the tree huggers got bigger muscle than the music industry...

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Many tree huggers are in the music industry .

Nothing wrong with being a tree hugger. I consider myself to be an environmental conservationist. I don't like to see resources wasted or completely used up. No one would like to see all the trees and animals of Madagascar disappear for a few guitar fretboards. I think we would all like to see responsible resource management come to Madagascar. Corrupt governments and individuals make that less likely to happen. Ultimately it is all about money, and tree huggers are notoriously poor. Some people are making money because of Lacey and you can bet it's not the tree huggers.

How many trees have you planted in the last 10 years ? What makes you an environmental conservationist ? Do you own anything that contains endangered items or things made in part of endangered items ?
I am both curious and stirring the pot a bit .

This entire incident can best be summed up by the words of Clint Eastwood in "Heartbreak Ridge"...

"It's a cluster f***"

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Hank Mauel

So what do you wipe your butt with? Like I said earlier we wipe our butts with more wood in one year then what the musical industry has ever used. We need to stop sticking our big noses in other countries business and start worrying about our own. Maybe before responsible resource management comes to Madagascar it needs to come to this country first. And please don't say it has already has because it hasn't. Big business has seen to that. We have wiped out tens of thousands of acres of wetlands and forest in the name of progress and continue to do so. We have wiped out or nearly have many species of animals in this country. Until we can police ourselves we need to stop trying to be the world police.

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Another day, another dollar.

A trained luthier with a sharp chisel and a band saw is no match for Rambo.

You better have the strength to either carry the band saw or wrestle someone like Rambo to a bandsaw.... chain saws are a better choice.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Hi Richard,
Must one plant trees to be an environmental conservationist? I have planted a few (less than a dozen in the past 10 years) and let several dozen grow. I have chopped down a few also. I worked in the soil and water conservation field for about eight years. I claim no particular privilege or entitlement from that, but still believe that we should not waste our natural resources. I am not a "rabid preservationist" nor a "slash and burn rapist" developer.
I do own some items which were once parts of plants and animals which are now considered endangered. At the time these parts were harvested, that was not the case. I don't condone the indiscriminate slaughter of poor little defenseless animals, but to some extent I view Elephants as big cows, and feel killing and eating a few of them by the locals is appropriate in places where they are overly abundant. I believe in conservation, not preservation.
Hi Michael,
Wiping your butt is one of the few occasions where the tree hugs back. Another is when it falls on you because you cut it down.
I agree with most of what you say. When I wrote "corrupt governments" I didn't exclude our own. I don't believe Lacey was rewritten to protect other countries resources. I think the tree huggers are willingly accepting the blame for something they probably had little impact on.