Official Luthiers Forum!

Greetings everyone. I've been a long time reader of the forum and generally find what I need via the search option but I have a quick question for those who may have some experience in harvesting and sawing logs into suitable lumber to be re-sawn at a latter date.

The recent storms in Virginia have knocked down many trees, providing an opportunity to utilize some local woods. I have access to some Black Walnut, Sassafras, Red Oak, and possibly some Locust and Mulberry.

I'm primarily interested in eventual B+S sets for acoustics, but I'm interested in the Sassafras for kerfed linings. Some of the Walnut and possibly the R Oak might go towards a few electric body banks. Locust probably won't be big enough to QS into decent size so it's probably going to be fretboard and bridge material although I'm not opposed to a multi-piece back.

My question concerns the best cuts for the initial boards. Would the standard cut of 4/4 or 5/4 (around 25 cm-32cm) and quartersawn be the best way to go for the B+S sets? I know some folks go 8/4 (around 51 cm) before resaw but wonder if the shorter drying time and ability to cut more on quarter at 4/4 or 5/4 is a better option?

If I do any electric blanks I was figuring on cutting at 8/4 to allow for shrinkage to 7/4 (around 45cm)

Thank you in advance and sorry for the long post.

Steve

I know nothing about harvesting, but I do know that if you want to sell guitars made from local woods, you have to be certified to harvest and a Sheriff must be present to witness the harvest, or it will not pass Lacey standards for commercial use. You can use it for fence posts and garden timbers all day, as long as you don't sell them.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

I do 5/4 for acoustic wood because it quarters nicely .
8/4 or 9/4 is what I cut for electric blanks .
Black walnut is a wonderful back and side wood . Do as you like .
You want to seal all of your end grain ASAP . I use Rockler green wood end grain sealer .
You will also want to prepare a level area for stacking and stickering . You will also want to weight your stacks . I keep fans running constantly on the stacks for at lease 3 weeks and more as conditions require . Once moisture content falls below 25% , mold becomes considerably less likely .
Will you be air drying or using a kiln ?
It is best to saw ASAP after removing from their fall .
PM me if you have any more questions .
This is a very rewarding process for me on a personal basis because I know where every tree stood .

And it probably goes without saying that you need to get all the bark off ASAP. Lots of pesky, nasty little beasts live in there.

I hope this is a satirical comment. It is not an accurate discription of the law.

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Aaron Craig

Here are a few things I learned after hurricane Hugo:

Rule #1 If the tree came out of a residential or business lot it will have metal, glass, ceramic, etc objects hiding inside and waiting to destroy your blade. Unless it is something you have to have (like a huge Holly) let it go for firewood.

Find someone local with a kiln and experience with the types of lumber you have before you start sawing boards. Have the load processed and put through a sterilization cycle to put down any insect infestation (this is very important for White Oak and Red Maple). It's worth the expense and gives you a much better bang for your labor investment. If you can't make Kiln arrangements and have room you can make a solar kiln fairly easy. VA Tech has lots of info and conducts a course on making and operating them. http://sbio.vt.edu/about/extension/vtsolar_kiln/

Air drying is great for Walnut and Spruce/Conifers. Position the stack in the shade with the sides perpendicular to the prevailing wind. I use ratchet straps and stickers every 16"-24" to keep everything tight and straight. Cover with corrugated roofing and allow an ~18-24" overhang. Keep track of the moisture content differences between the upwind side boards and the inside boards. If the outside is drying too fast, re-stack, swapping positions and consider a wind break to slow the drying down.

Don't use limbs and trees which have an obvious twist from the wind. They make excellent firewood but become wild animals when you try to convert them to flat stock.

For small loads you can enclose the stack in a tent of blue plastic tarps. Run a dehumidifier inside the tent. Another option is to put the small load in a well ventilated attic.
Good luck, be safe and keep the blood on the inside. Chain saws can hurt.

That is true (particularly in the summer), but removing the bark and leaving the logs in the round for very long is not a good idea, either. The outside of the log will dry quicker, causing large cracks. All the more reason to process the wood into boards ASAP. For backs and sides, I also prefer to cut 5/4 boards. This allows for some warpage and still get four slices comfortably when resawing. I like to air dry the wood below 12% MC before resawing.
My other piece of advice is to use dry sticks when stickering. Using scrap green wood will almost guarantee sticker stains.
Most of my stickers were cut from scrap framing lumber.

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John

That depends on the local jurisdiction. If the State, County, City, or any other Legislative authority requires a certification or permit to harvest wood for commercial use, then that certification or permit is required by Lacey. That's one of the problems with Lacey, it requires compliance with ALL laws of ALL jurisdictions relating to the harvesting and transport of plant material.

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A man hears what he wants to hear, and disreguards the rest. Paul Simon

You've now presented the most legally correct answer - it depends (which just so happens to be the most correct initial response to the vast majority of legal questions).

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Aaron Craig

Aaron - which part of Waddy's post do you find inaccurate with regard to Lacey? I'm not in a position to argue with either statement, but based on my limited understanding of the law, it would not surprise me if Waddy's statement was accurate so I am just interested to know the facts. Thanks.

Lacey act and stuff is starting to make luthiery seem more like pyrotechnics, as in a bunch of materials can't be shipped because of some obscure law. Pyrotechnic is bad enough with hazardous chemicals having shipping restriction but now even wood has to be treated like hazardous material too?

So what does the government want us to do for a living, sit in an office all day and do nothing useful?

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

As written - both statements.

Factual Assertion A - "[I]f you want to sell guitars made from local woods, you have to be certified to harvest and a Sheriff must be present to witness the harvest." My short response - Factual Assertion A is far too broadly written to provide meaningful guidance. Is there a federal certificate that a person must procure to cut a tree down that stands on land he hold a fee simple interest in if he will be selling the wood harvested from that tree to others? In the state where the man owns the land on which the tree stands, is there a law/regulation that requires a certificate and/or a local county Sheriff to be present when said tree is harvested for future sale to others? Same question as it relates to county/municipality, etc., etc. . . . ?

Factual Assertion B - "You can use it for fence posts and garden timbers all day, as long as you don't sell them." Factual Assertion B is false because if a tree, for example, is harvested in violation of any federal, state, foreign, local law/regulation it is just as unlawful under the Lacey Act to possess the harvested product (e.g., use the harvested wood for your fence posts and garden timbers) as it would be to sell it.

My main point is/was - Lacey is too complicated to write in two sentences (unless the be ridiculously long, ill-formed sentences) a guide to compliance/non-compliance. If the point Waddy was attempting to make is that compliance with Lacey seems so difficult that you might not be safe unless you have the local sheriff drive the Pope to your land and get the entire process on film, that would be appropriate satire in my book. But for those who may not be as familiar with the law in this area, generalized, overly broad statements of what might appear to be black letter law may be unnecessarily misleading.

Edit - the OP wasn't interested in the Lacey Act, and there are enough Lacey specific threads with plenty of information/misinformation on the subject that we need not continue this discussion here.

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Aaron Craig

Steve Cook where abouts in VA are you if you don't mind me asking? I'm in Blacksburg and I'm seeing all kinds of trees down that I'd love to harvest but I don't have the tools to do it. That storm was nasty!

Let's see....... I think my point really was that if you are going to sell guitars made from the local wood you harvest, make sure you have legally harvested the wood, and have some kind of documentation to that effect, especially if that guitar will be crossing a boarder.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Thank you everyone for the advice.


I'm familiar with the Lacey Act but have no idea of all the ins and outs of it. None of these trees should violate any laws, they are all storm blow downs on private property. None of the species are threatened, endangered, etc.

The trees are all woods trees or on the edges of farm fields so I hope to not run into any issues that can be found in yard trees.

The sawyer generally uses Anchorseal to seal the ends although we've used parafin wax in the past and in a pinch I've used Elmer's white to get a quick seal when I didn't have anything else on hand.

The boards will be stacked on 4"x4"s or cinder blocks, stickered with 1"x1" seasoned oak stickers, and weighted with cinder blocks. I never thought about the importance of fans but I can run some barn fans to get good circulation (thanks for the heads up on fans Otterhound). The stacks will be in my barn/shop which is a metal building with a concrete slab floor. No climate control but I hope the fans will circulate everything enough to work.

Hoping to get into it by this weekend. I will take pictures for those who might be interested, I know those of us with WAS generally appreciate them. If you've never had a chance to work with Walnut or Sassafras I would highly recommend it. Both woods have a wonderful and pleasant aroma.

Once again thank you for your advice.

Steve

Waddy, I think you're correct. The way things are heading it's better to be safe than sorry and have everything documented. I'm sure that years ago no one saw where Tortoise shell picks and BRW were heading.

As for selling my guitars, the furthest I've gotten with that is that my sister wants one.


To hang on her wall like a quaint piece of folk art...



Steve

JFMcKenna, I'm in Madison County close to Old Rag Mountain if you're familiar with the area. I've sent you a PM.


Steve

Well put, Waddy. I'll not argue with that. And just for the record, my comments weren't intended to offend you, they were just to make sure no one else reading misconstrued what was being said.

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Aaron Craig

I didn't take them in any negative light. It's always best to make your intentions clear.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Try to maintain open windows and/or doors if possible so that the air can exchange . The beginning of this process is so important because the best way to deal with mold is to prevent it . Please don't ask me how I know this . Once you get below the 25% mark , you should be in the clear unless you have conditions like I had last year . If you see mold taking hold keep the air moving and wipe the wood down with naptha . Yes , this does mean taking down the stack/s and re-stacking . Please don't ask me again . Remember that you want the air to circulate through the stack , not just around it .
It is best but not essential to expose your drying wood to temp cycles in order to help it relax .
Try cherry for another wonderful bouquet .
I just finished stacking some locust and maple last week .
Best of luck and I would love to see some pics .