Official Luthiers Forum!

SO I just strung up my very first Selmer built this weekend and I don't know what to make of it. I've only repaired a few of these in the years past and I know a guy who's an professional musician that plays one, amazing guitar player. I've worked on his Gitane in the past. I've always thought they sound horrible except when in the hands of someone who knows how to play one. Anyway mine sounds equally as horrible! My question is, what are these weird little devices supposed to sound like? Mine is laminated rosewood mahogany back and sides with a cedar top. I followed Charles plans and Michael Collin's book though I used my own open work board methods to build and it has a bolt on walnut neck. Pliage and all that as well. I made the top bracing just a hair smaller than the plans simply because I felt like I was over building the thing.

Anyway the tone is very mid range. It completely lacks a bass response and the trebles are piercing. Overall though the tone is right down the mid range. Almost metallic sounding. I'm using Argintine strings in size 10 - 46. It is definitely very loud and some notes seem to have some sustain while others just up and disappear.

I need to take it to my friend who plays to get his hopefully honest opinion but for any of you who build these weird little creatures I wonder what you think? I could make a recording but I can't play the darn thing so...

I think those guitars were designed to cut through the mix.
Meaning one can hear it when other instruments are playing with it.
Sounds like yours sounds perfect!

in my limited experience,selmacs have some low end, but nothing as powerful as, say, a dread. mids can vary but are always present and you want them "focused"; highs are there, and sometimes a bit harsh - but i´ve only played two copies. what is also important is headroom: usually you want to play them loud! keep in mind that picking for gypsy jazz is quite different and, along with argies, is responbsible for an heavy dose of the gypsy sound.
you could try getting more feedback at djangobooks forum, or even at mimf: craig bumgarner and alain bieber have open threads about selmers there.
FWIW, here is a graph of an open a string plucked on my selmer copy (no pliage, 5 transverse braces). if you want you i can try to record something, but my argies are quite worn out.

cheers,
miguel.

_________________
member of the guild of professional dilettantes

Im always listening and watchig gyspy stuff on youtube.
from what I know to get the "right" sound out of that guitar you need very thick picks, from 2mm to 3mm. mostly played with strong down strokes.
from what you describe the sound could be right, just that is a whole lot different from a traditional steel string that you might be used to hear.
I think the bass register on those guitars is not their strong point, for the tipe of bracing it shouldnt be.
I´d love to hear it

PD: is it a Petite Bouche?

Gypsy jazz lead tends to be played on the higher notes while the rhythm guitarist plays the heavily muted bass, so there is not much need for a good bass response. Gypsy jazz guitarists also use very heavy picks (like 3mm thick) which affects the tone a bit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1rtZRwr ... re=related
(Had to get my favorite players in somewhere! )

Edit: Munen beat me to it!

_________________
"I am always doing that which I cannot do, in order that I may learn how to do it."
Pablo Picasso

https://www.facebook.com/FenskeGuitars

not only the pick is thick (i favour a 3mm pick, but i´ve seen guys picking away with 5mm monsters) but the picking itself is of a very different sort (your friend should show you that): this video (besides some awesome and very classy playing by two of my favs) shows two very different ways of gypsy picking. notice, however, taht they both use their elbows "locked" above the lower bout and a curved, floating picking right-hand which - as munen said - uses a lot of down/rest strokes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdJU9qUv50g

cheers!

_________________
member of the guild of professional dilettantes

Hmmm maybe I'll have to get some thick picks. I was using the purple Dunlop picks. They seem to be pretty thick but maybe not THAT thick.

The guitar is the small oval sound hole model.

I checked out that djangobooks forum. Didn't know about that. That's gonna be a good resource for technique. Maybe if you promise not to laugh I'll record something just to hear the tone

All the replies seem spot on to me. The solo picking style is basically strong rest-stroke picking, giving the distinctive accents you hear in the genre. Picks are very thick and typically shaped on the edge to help them "slide" over the strings a bit better. But every player has their own preference. I've used 1.4mm and 2mm Dunlops with OK results but generally use the thicker gyspy jazz style picks. Some even like the heavy dunlops better than the expensive gyspy jazz picks. And some folks are making picks more in the style of the heavy jazz picks some guys use.
As mentioned above, those guitars are designed to cut through the mix. I just played SelMac #12 (D-hole with resonator) and a later, late 1930's maybe, original Selmer oval hole at Django in June. Both had the typical strong mid and short sustain - though string condition and player technique can change that quite a bit. I play mediocre rhythm. In rhythm the bass is a short gruff burst at best most of the time. No dreadlike boominess required or even desired. Much soloing is more about the punch and swing than sweetness and sustain, though those sustained vibrato notes are golden. Skilled soloists can coax amazing sweetness from them. One of my favorite players described the sound of these guitars as "ugly" requiring a lot of work to make them sound good, and he is able to make them sound so sweet....

So, sounds like you may have hit the target!

_________________
Chuck Kish

Ok so I put something together so you can hear the tone. Forgive the playing though, this style is way beyond me. But it sure is fun

I just put two tracks on, the rhythm and the one with the arpeggio's, same guitar.

http://k005.kiwi6.com/hotlink/urma9s8jr ... o_john.mp3

One clip that is stuck in my head for years is this one, check the second piece starting after 2:00. At times (3:10 for example) the guitar sounds as sweet as a fine classical guitar, it's truly killing me. This is not a Selmer, but something made by a luthier i forgot his name and it is even larger and longer scale!

_________________
Build log

Alexandru I know exactly what you are saying!!! I've scoured the Internet for existing coverage on these guitars and the style and I have heard the exact same thing... The classical guitar nuance.

I listened to your recording.
Perfect tone, IMO.
Congrats!

Found the info: Jacques Favino. The LB is 16 1/2 and the scale is nearly 26 2/3 (675mm while Selmers are 670). A true beast!

_________________
Build log

Keep in mind that Mario Maccafferi, who designed the original Sel-Macs was a classical player who was looking for a classical sound that could cut through an orchestra better than the classicals of his day.



A lot of players really like the Favino sound and seek them out. There are many Favino copies being made by individual luthiers as well as in "factory" settings.

_________________
Chuck Kish