Official Luthiers Forum!

Hello forum,

I embarking on my 1st go around w/ wet finish sanding 3 guitars that I shot with EM6000. Can you give me the general premise of what I am trying to accomplish, and some suggestions on starting and ending grits, soak in mineral spirits, water etc, and how do I avoid the dreaded sand through.

I appreciate the guidance.

Dave

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Dave

Remember, to always plant trees under which you may never sit.

Well, first advice is wait a month from spraying (........others say less but I think waiting that long reduces the possibility of later shrinkback). Then I sand with 1000/1200/1500/2000 using mineral spirits. The only problem I've run into was subsequent "roughening" around tuner holes, which I subscribe to overly wet slurry (...made it's way into tuner holes & endgrain of the head veneers immediately around the holes). I now "wetsand" the head almost dry. Biggest sandthrough risk is sharp edges....I totally avoid them 'till 1500/2000

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Dave
Milton, ON

I agree 100% with Dave.

Starting with 1000 is also helped greatly by doing some careful sanding between applications. I also wait a day after wet sanding to buff and then another day (at least) after buffing before touching the guitar.

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Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

Dave and Burton, have you had EM6000 finished guitars "out there" for a few years? How are they holding up in the hands of gigging musicians? Getting hazy, neck breakdown, stuff like that. Thanks.

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

I have one with someone who has the toxic sweat syndrome. The neck is fine as I oil finish the necks, it looks exactly like it did when I sent it out. Where his body touches the guitar (and he leans way over and is in constant contact) you can see some finish degrade, like small bubbling almost. He doesn't seem to care and I could certainly fix it quickly and perfectly if it was ever requested. He has had it about a year and a half. Where he is not in direct contact with it it looks fine. I have another which has been strung up and handed around (my shop guitar which I lend out regularly for recording, gigs etc..) for 3 years or so and it shows normal play wear (scratches, dings etc...) but nothing beyond that. The same player who has the other guitar used that one for a few months before buying the one he has now and in that period did not affect the finish as he has the one he plays every day. I do notice that it continues to shrink a bit over time (months, not weeks). At least I think it is the finish and not a combo with my pore fill (WEST 207). It is not enough to make it a deal breaker but something to consider.

I definitely don't think it is perfect but in terms of the comprimises I am willing to make it fits the bill nicely and I love the water clean up. I regularly do invisible repairs and that is worth a lot to me as well. I encourage customers who are particular to pay a bit extra and have the guitar sent out for polyester as I don't have the desire to set myself up for that and others do such a wonderful job. If I knew the guitar was going to someone who was going to tour instead of play it mostly at home it I would encourage that, as well as build it differently. When I build spec guitars I always try to consider those things.

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Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

Yep, good catch Burton......same for me on all.
Terrence, you'll want to check out the Target forum for feedback on EM6000....bit early for me to comment
eg http://www.targetcoatings.com/forum/vie ... ght=em6000

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Dave
Milton, ON

Burton,

I have my first order of Em6000 on the way and had planned on doing the neck with it.

Can you tell me what your process is for doing an oil finish on the neck? Do you still do the headstock with the EM6000 and just the shaft with oil, or is the entire thing done with oil? Do you still use Zpoxy for the pore fill under?

What is the difference in feel between the Oil and the EM6000? Other than the durability for sweaty hands, are there other reasons to use oil instead of EM6000 or is it just the feel? I've never actually touched a guitar with an EM6000 finish so I'm taking a leap of faith with this.


Thanks,

John

Dave and Burton, thanks for the feedback and the feedback on the longevity. So far I really like the application of the EM6000, and if I can get it to sand and buff out decently, I will continue to use it.

Cheers,

Dave

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Dave

Remember, to always plant trees under which you may never sit.

John,

My oil process couldn't be easier! Sand to 400/600 and literally just wipe on some waterlox. I don't pore fill the shaft. I do pore fill and finish the headstock face with gloss but everything else on the neck is just oiled. I much much prefer it to anything else. When it is done well it feels and looks to me like something you would want to touch. A gloss neck never does that for me.

With the waterlox I have found it works best when you wipe on a somewhat wet layer and then immediately wipe it off and buff by hand with a soft cloth. It will feel like you are putting nothing on but it will build slowly and doing it this way will show no application marks and give that perfect soft even sheen. It can be recoated at any time. I use the original, with the red label. If you try this you must use bloxygen and use it liberally. Otherwise your big can of finish will become gooey.

I think the 6000 would be fine on the neck, it doesn't feel much different then other gloss finishes. I just don't like the look or feel for the neck. If you are interested in seeing an example this guitar has a cuban mahogany neck with the waterlox:

http://legeytguitars.com/2012/02/05/mod ... /#more-503

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Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

Thanks Burton. I'll give that some thought for the next one. I have already filled the neck with Zpoxy so an oil finish may not be the best. Of course I could always test on scrap. No really I should, I just like the laughing guy.

When you are sanding between the coats for the EM6000, what grit are you using and are you doing it before each session (like 4 per day then sand)? I was planning on doing a leveling after 12 coats, then spraying the final coats and letting things sit for a month.

I always change a little bit but the last one was:

(assumed pore filled and shellac sealed)
3 coats sprayed wet (with 2 drops honey amber per pint) then light (50%) skim sand with 400
3 coats sprayed wet (again with 2 drops) then 80% skim sand with 600
3 coats sprayed wet (again with those drops) then 100% sand with 800, then 1000 abranet
3 coats sprayed not quite wet then sit for at least 2 weeks

I would say I spray the back a little thicker than the top all the time
Most of this is inspired directly from Gerald Sheppard's schedule. If I have time to wait a day or more between 3 coat applications I will. I give at least an hour between coats. I do the in between sanding right before the next spray session. I never do not get little nub-looking things after the 3 coats but they always sand right off.

This left me with .004 around the bridge (measured roughly off the bridge masking). I am confident I could go thinner and still not sand through but don't really feel like I need to add any more stress to the process

I also had a revelation in buffing with more sanding (up to a good 2000 coat) and less buffing pressure and more compound on the wheel. Buffing was always a bit of a mystery and doing this improved my finish with the 6000.

I am not an expert on this in any way so please take that into account.

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Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

Burton - probably a dumb question but what do you mean by "50% skim sand", "80% skim sand", etc.? Thx

Charlie,

I mean you sand back that much of the gloss, i.e not a complete level sand.

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Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

Ah, gotcha. Thanks Burton.

So you are sanding waterborne finish with mineral spirits. I am so glad I saw this thread, because I had been told that I needed to wet-sand the finish and told the person I was talking to that I had used waterborne (this guitar is getting KTM9 cuz I had a small can that needed to be used), and he never said not to use water....but that seemed problematic to me! How much ventilation and protection do you need to use with Mineral spirit wet sanding? I chose waterborne for the improved personal and environmental safety....wouldn't want to blow it with the wet sanding

Beth, all waterbournes do not need mineral sprits as a lubricant. I wet sanded all my Ultima finishes (Targets pre EM6000 finish) with water & no problems. Don't know about KTM. Anyway, I use gloves only (so I don't sand off my fingerprints & more)

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Dave
Milton, ON

Just a quick aside on the oil neck:

I got an email a day or so ago about a guitar I sent out a few weeks ago and the customer can't live with the neck finish. He wants the gloss and pore fill. Groan. Even though I prefer it it's not everyone's cup of tea. I guess the gloss is popular for a reason!

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Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

I use water also for wet sanding EM6000, but I think it is wise to wait 1 week before doing so..

Trev

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

So, I wet sanded 3 completed bodies yesterday using mineral spirits and going 1000, 1200, 1500, and 2000 grit sandpaper. Since this was my 1st time, I was not sure what to expect, and not sure if I got it right. My question is, what should the finished product, pre-buff out w/ Menzerna med and fine compound look like? Should taking it to 2000 grit make scratch free, or will the buffing wheel help finish that off?

Thanks in advance for the help,

Dave

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Dave

Remember, to always plant trees under which you may never sit.

I dry sand my EM6000 finishes with 800 through 1200 then polish with 2L and 16 Menzerna compounds and finally intensive polish - the results are fantastic. Nothing compels me to want to wet sand.

I spray my bodies with EM6000 and necks with SC9000. If find EM6000 to be less durable than nitro, and SC9000 to be more durable than EM6000.

Dave

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David Radlin
http://www.facebook.com/radlin.guitars

Well, it should look uniform, and taking it to 2000 will help buffing a lot. If you see a scratch that stands out, deal with it. Even if buffing reveals a scratch you didn't see before, go back to 2000 & get rid of it, then carry on buffing. No problem.

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Dave
Milton, ON

I don't understand how any of you can wet sand EM6000 with water. It locks up on me when I tried that. Mineral spirits work great. Maybe if the finish is well aged water will work ok. But the only thing I use is mineral spirits.

Mike