Official Luthiers Forum!

This should be an interesting thread. Since being rather unceremoniously canned from my technical position in the adhesives industry last week, I'm rethinking my place in the world... Specifically the corporate world in which employees are nothing more than a means to an end and they are always expendable. Reflecting on the common themes in my life and the things I could do all day without feeling like I'm even working are guitars and guns. I love the interplay of art and science, the satisfaction of crafting a raw piece of material into a thing of function and beauty... Even the zen like peace of sharpening my bench chisels.

I'm not particularly far into life. Being 30 years old this is an easy point in time to try my best at making a career that I can truly enjoy and be proud of. My question for you (especially those who did something similar) is how you pulled it off? Right now I have a severance package that will keep me on my feet for a while. I have rent and bills to pay, so I understand that I may need to work an extra job to keep my finances balanced at least at first.

I've given my resume out to a few local repair/restoration/custom build shops and have interviews in place next week. I may also advertise my services as a consultant to some of the big manufacturers as well. Moving is not an option for another year and a half when my fiancee finishes her Mechanical Engineering degree. I have more hand tools than power tools at the moment, and no access to a climate controlled shop. The biggest thing I have going for me right now is that a good friend from music school (signed to a major label, and tours nationally) has commissioned a custom 8 string King V style guitar from me. My worst case scenario is to take a job with an adhesives or biotech company and do that until I make enough from guitars to quit. I'm exceptionally fortunate that my fiancee supports my crazy aspirations!

I'd love to hear all your stories and any advice you have for me!

Thanks!

Most guys who can make a go of it full time have a wife with a really great paying job...

...or they are really driven individuals who work full time at a regular job, and do the luthery thing about full time as well...

...or they're concentrating on repairs, which actually pays (a little).



OR they've hit the lottery and don't get hung up over the wages of full time lutherie.
Don't know any folks like that though.

On the serious side...getting schooling from a place like Roberto-Venn or other is a good step in the right direction for learning repair work and stepping out on your own.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

I'm definitely in a middle ground between the common approaches you've described. Right now I am very seriously considering doing repairs and building as well as holding down a "real" job up to a total of 60 hours per week.

Hugh,

How many have you built so far? Where do you see yourself being right now on the overall curve from beginner to accomplished?

I think the answer to your questions depends a lot on where you are on that arc. If you are already at a place where you could successfully sell your product at a reasonable price, then you may be at the point where you could deal with the deprivations needed while you get to an even more successful level (do the math - you need to sell a lot of guitars at a good price to make a decent salary). If you are lower on the arc - stick with your resume for a while.

Jim

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

Don't get kids, and learn to like beans and rice. Oh, and that fiancee sounds like a keeper... (I'm in the two jobs, 60 h/week category, BTW. I've briefly done both the full time and part time luthier thing, but unless you are willing to do a lot of repairs and not fart around and build one or two instruments at a time, its hard to feed a family that way over here...)

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

I worked a full time job for 35 years, doing repairs & building part time.
Now that the youngest is just about out of school, I cleverly got laid off and went to the shop full time.
Oh yeah, and the wife works too.
If it works out, I can build till I'm 80 or 90!
Best job ever!

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https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100008907949110

I worked full time as a pharmacy technician while learning the trade, then I found a small store willing to hire me as a guitar tech for an hourly rate. I built up a good reputation then moved to another store as an independant contractor. Now I work from home.

I have more time to build now that I'm not in a retail setting.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

Thanks to a very unique internship at Martin several years ago I can honestly say I have literally built several hundred guitars. My biggest hurdles are equipment and shop space. As a starting point I suspect the easiest way to start bringing in cash would be to
Make historically authentic replacement bodies and necks. Using templates and a router $40 worth of wood can be transformed into $150 or more.

I'm quite accomplished with period furniture making skills as well. I'm talking with a friend about building our own cnc router from aluminum extrusions. Just more ideas I suppose.

There is a nice little book by Kent Everett called "How to make a living doing something crazy". It ia athttp://www.everettguitars.com/stuff.html. It is short, readable, entertaining and enlightening. And cheap.
I am planning to do it by retiring in a year or two. I am spending the time now putting my shop in order and building my skill while I still have disposable income. I should have enough retirement income to live comfortably and hopefully make enough to supplement it to live a little nicer. I figure I can't lose. I will be able to live comfortably but even if I never sell a guitar I will enjoy the heck out of my retirement making them.
My situation probably does not help you but that little book helped me think through things and not do something too crazy.
I wish I had figured out how to do it 20 years ago. Go for it but plan carefully.
Eddie

oh, a fellow chemist? i´ve worked at it for seven years. maybe there´s still hope for me.

i plan to go pro at some time. the kids are still too young, and the wife´s job is meagre.

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member of the guild of professional dilettantes

I went fulltime in November of 1979 and ran the repair shop in the music store until April of 1990. I was also doing a little building, but concentrated on repair and service. The first 3 years I nearly starved - I worked weekends pumping gas just to have grocery money. I lived in a boarding house full of musicians at the time, and rent was dirt cheap. Eventually business picked up, and when going full steam doing repairs, building, and refinishing I had 2 locations, 1 fulltime employee, and 2 part-timers. I was working 80 hours a week. Eventually I burnt out.

I was good at the bench, but a lousy businessman. I was too nice, and didn't exercise caution when ordering, and so forth. Long story, and I won't bore you with it.

After that, I went back to part-time repair and building while working fulltime as a tool & die maker for one of the large aircraft makers here in town. Now I'm retired from aircraft, and do repair as needed, and am planning my first complete build in nearly 20 years - just to see if I can still do it.

I loved working fulltime as a luthier - it was so much fun. If I had a chance to do it all over again, I might - but this time I'd be tougher running the guts of the business. It is great to look back, but I only miss the good times.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Hi, Hugh,
First of all, you've got a VERY good woman there.

Not being a professional builder, I can't advise you about building as a career. I do recall a similar thread some years ago--perhaps on a different forum--where most of the respondents said they just kept building and accumulating instruments and selling them to their friends (initially just to cover materials and buy more) until they had a regular cash stream coming in.

I'm a self employed person and I can tell you for certain that there are serious costs associated with running one's own business: Taxes, insurance, materials, marketing, utilities and a host of other things. I can also tell you that the near-future cost of many of these things can't be predicted in the current political climate. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that unpredictability is probably the reason so many good people get laid off from their good jobs. Employers are finding it almost impossible to forecast the future cost of an employee. I am sorry you were a victim of the times. Your former employer might or might not have also been a victim of the times.

With all that in mind, I'll toss this out: Have a hard talk with yourself and ask yourself what you do BEST. If the answer is your recent profession, then find more work there however you can--including starting your own business in that field, as a consultant or whatever. You might be able to travel or telecommute to your assignments, as I do. If the honest answer is luthiery (I'm not talking about your dreams here, I'm talking about what you do BEST), then figure out what will start the revenue stream soonest. I'm guessing it would be repair work and not custom building. In that scenario, you might eventually segue into building instruments, but you'd be working on instruments all the time.

Beware of this potential: You love building instruments. You've got good experience and it doesn't feel like work to you. But if you had to deal with customers, marketing, guarantees, deadlines, shipping, billing, collecting, cash flow, getting stiffed by some customers, etc. etc. etc., would it start to feel like work to you? Would the bloom fade? Would you begin to resent your customers? These are VERY serious questions you must ask yourself.

I love building, too. My skills are enough to wow my friends, but not on the same level as so many others on this forum. I want building to be my hobby--one that occasionally pays for itself. I don't ever want it to be a job.

But that's just my personal decision. Your decision might differ.

Whatever you decide, best of luck to you! Cream always rises, and slow and steady always wins the race. Now...listen to what everyone says in response, and then go ask yourself those difficult questions.

Patrick

I don't know. This is a very expensive hobby that can, possibly, be done in a way that pays for itself. And then some. I look at it as a way to make some money on the side doing something I love to do. However, if you can find a way to build something that folks really want and are willing to pay top dollar, then maybe. Niche markets that the big time makers ignore.

Mike

I have been full time for 3 years now. I am lucky in that for 10 years prior I had built up my hobby. When I got downsized 3 yrs ago it seemed the right thing to do.
You have to be diversified so you can broaden your market. I do build 8 to 12 guitars a year. Many are conversions of Martin guitars to pre war. I also have the jig and fixtures. Repair work is also keeping me busy. My wife and I both work full time in the business.
It isn't easy but we do pay out bills and while we work many hours a week . Once you do go to a business , you have to treat it as such. If I can give any one , one piece of advice , is to go talk to professionals. Many friends gave me advice but it wasn't until I went to professional accountants and lawyers, and learned what I had to do. In each case the accountants, and other pros advice was more than worth the money.
Insurance , and other things you may not have thought about will be important. What you can use as business deductions may surprise you. What you are liable for , all this is more than you may comprehend at first. It is best to find out what you need to do to cover you in your area.
Getting authorized repair centers isn't as easy as it used to be. Martin wants you to be a dealer or connected to a dealer. Finding good customers is a great way to get more.
Good luck and have a business plan. You may be surprised at how much money it takes to make money.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

This is an interesting discussion. I'm a total newb, but completely fascinated by the prospect of being a full-time builder someday if the good Lord has given me those aptitudes at all. But if it's not possible to make a decent living at . . . well, then . . . with a wife, a kid and more to come some day we hope . . . makes things look a little different.

It makes me wonder: how many single builder operations are there that are making say . . . let's just throw out a number . . . $60,000 or more in sales each year? If not that, what's a good average?

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Adam

When I first met Dan Erlewine, we were having drinks together with Bryan Galloup, Andrew Holland and some others. Dan asked me:

"Married?"
"No."
"Girlfriend?"
"Not currently"
"Got any kids?"
"No."
"You're gonna have a great career!"

This is an interesting website:
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/ (especially this article http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/)
This guy (who happens to be my uncle) has an interesting take on money.
I plan on doing something like this sometime in the future, so I will be watching this thread with interest .

I was, like most everyone else, building and repairing while holding down a full-time job at first, but a little over 3 years into building instruments, I got laid-off. At that point, I did what everyone else does, and that is to send my resume around, and the calls came. But I turned them all down. I had a 2 year wait list for instruments at that time, and decided that I'd go for it, and if it failed, -then- I could fall-back on my degree and re-send the resume to all these good folks(yeah, right...) that wanted me(wanted to use me, that is). The date of the lay-off was November 15th, 1999.

I'm now sporting a 10+ year wait list for guitars, I keep a "names-only" list for mandolins(gives me some creative/artistic freedom), and the little idea I had a few years ago for a pickguard material is taking-off nicely. I also own a small house that I rent to a nice retired couple. My wife doesn't have a paying job, but she helps me with some stuff, and she does the farmers' markets and craft shows and such around here where she sells stuff that she makes to keep herself busy. In short, we're making it, without anyone drawing a salary. We live frugally, but we live well. I wise old fella once told me, when I remarked that he seemed to have done as well as everyone else despite working at a place that barely paid minimum wage all his life, that "it isn't how much money you make that counts, but how much you keep...". By that, he went-on to clarify that he didn't squirrel away every penny he ever made, but rather, he didn't waste any of it. He didn't smoke, rarely drank, raised much of his food in a garden and bought his beef from local farmers by the quarter, instead of at the supermarket by the pound, never owned a brand new car, etc...

I live by his advice. Our family income is below the poverty level, according to my gubmint, yet we lack for nothing essential. Yeah, I carry more dept than I should, but I'm chipping away at that mountain.

BTW, when I first "went pro", I was still building instruments in my kitchen. I easily put-out 15 instruments/year in there, with very few power tools and very little space. Today, in a shop that is more than double the footage of that old house, and with a very nice array of tools, I still have trouble beating/matching that 15/year number. Go figure... Point is, you don't need a CNC and 1500 sq.ft. to "make it". If you build a product that people want, you will "make it". Period. Find your niche, and master it; the rest will just happen.

And when you do "make it", you'll kick yourself in the a.s.s forever, for you'll have ruined a perfectly excellent hobby...

Grumpy - it is really, really good to have your input here again!

Being self employed has its pros ... and its cons. I'm a dentist in my "real life". Self employment is great if you can deal with the expense and admin that goes with it - insurances, materials, utility bills etc etc. Not to forget accountancy bills . Sure you get to take holidays when you like and answer to no one (except customers I expect for pro luthiers) but .. but .. when you take a holiday you get a double whammy. You make no money on holidays, plus you have to pay for that holiday - effectively I personally take less holidays than if I was salaried. My building is strictly amateur. I love it, every second in my shop is a treasure to me and probably like most I dream of being able to build guitars full time. I've even looked seriously into it financially. My admiration for the pros on the forum is immense. Your skills are just incredible, and with skills like that you can charge customers accordingly. In a nutshell - I couldn't. Plus I think Grumpy made an excellent comment. I love building because it relaxes me (except prepping binding/purfling channels lol) and I have no real time constraints in terms of finishing the instrument. Put money into the equation and a lot would change. There would be deadlines to meet, perhaps dissatisfied customers to deal with, profit and loss considerations, concerns about future orders being adequate to remain financially viable etc. It could ruin a great hobby.

Having said all that, if I could ensure that I'd have enough orders and make enough money to put food on the table for the family I'd jump at it. Hell, you only live once. If you have enough passion for luthiery and determination to succeed, plus the backing of a good woman (!) then there's nothing to lose from trying and everything to gain.

If you succeed however I'll be jealous as hell

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imagination is more important than knowledge, knowledge is limited, imagination encircles the world

Apart from a brief period of 6 months I've never been truly full time. The last 2 years however, I've never been more part time!

Don didn't really miss the point, he simply didn't really go into great details...


I do accounting by day, and haven't built much in the way of guitars in a few years now, but I do keep somewhat active with the cnc stuff which I find a great deal of satisfaction with. I lost my day job a year ago this past February, and have been working only part time up until a few months ago. While I was out of work...no insurance. Fortunately, my wife has insurance for her due to her job as an under-paid teacher in a private Christian school. We had a major health issue for her smack us in the face last June, and fortunately she was the one with the insurance. Had it been me, we would have been bankrupted for life financially. Yep....you have to take all the little details pretty seriously.

I think there has been some great advice given here. Of special note to me is Patrick's advice of finding what you do Best, and making that a focus. What I said about full timers with wives who have great jobs...I wasn't kidding. I know of several who build full time who couldn't do so without their wives being very gainfully employed. This is a Big Decision, but it sounds like you have a good head on your shoulders Hugh, and you'll come out alright with whatever you decide to do. Keep us apprised!

To add one more thing....

Very few people are fortunate enough to find a craft that they love and that they can also make money at. The old world ways of doing things hold a lot of intrinsic value to many, but they don't easily translate into today's society in a way that makes them a way of making a good living, nor are they necessarily valued by most of society. Do you make a great stereo amplifier? They don't care...but if you can build a great home theater for them, then they might care. Most people don't give a hoot that you build a guitar when they can go to Guitar Center and buy one cheaper. They haven't been exposed to what goes into a guitar, they see it as a tool for them to use to make music or find some enjoyment with. Some would argue that the general public needs to be educated, and that may be true. It certainly becomes part of the marketing of handmade instruments.
I had the pleasure of hanging out at a yarn shop a few weeks ago while looking for a birthday gift for my wife (I bought her a small inexpensive loom) and the owner was this tiny woman named Naomi who up until a few years ago was in the IT industry. She found a way after being laid off to make a living being around her passion. We talked about how rare that is to be able to sustain your lifestyle to a decent degree while having a career in the Arts. She really understood how rare it was and how fortunate she was. If you do make it work...know that you're very fortunate to do so, and many of us here will be both envious and admirers of your success.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

My advise... DONT start with building unless you want to do it part time... a lot of us aspiring luthiers always make that mistake... we want to tool up for building but much of that is unnecessary.

The truth is if you wish to go into luthiery full time, accept repair works, because while people will go to Guitar Center and pick up something they can play with, they often do end up developing a sentimental feel for their instrument and every once in a while, they will need repair or a setup of some kind, and professional musicians do have a need for a well set up instrument... if you're a player you will understand how a poorly setup instrument will do to their playing/feeling.

There are several blessings with this. First it is far easier to find customers who need repair or setup work done than someone who is willing to spend more than a few thousand dollars on a guitar, as their perception will be that a Taylor or a Martin is better, however sooner or later (especially someone who just bought a Taylor but wasn't exactly careful with them) they will need repair work done. By doing repair you will actually increase your skill by a LOT, I've learned more in the last 3 months than I did in the last 3 years, just taking on repair work from repairing a broken neck to regluing a bridge. Of course having another full time luthier refer work to me and then giving honest feedback on them helps too. So from now on I am able to glue a bridge down and have it look professional, as in no gaps anywhere. These skills will come in handy when building.

Another blessing is by taking on repair work, you build your word of mouth network and you get more and more people coming to you if your work is good, and with enough people who knows of your repair skill, you can also begin to sell your own instruments. Since much of this comes from reputation, by having built that reputation accepting repair work, you will also have enough of a reputation that people may consider commissioning you to build a guitar.

While you are repairing, do continue building instruments, just to have something a customer can see and learn about your skills, you could also somehow pawn them off or lend it to local musicians as a way to "get the word out". It also helps if you do get bored at the shop from a lack of customers... at least it gives you something to do.

I can honestly tell you I've made almost enough money doing repair work to make up for one commission at my asking price, and I still haven't gotten a commission in the few months since I started. It did help me that there seems to be a lack of professional luthiers in Taiwan (or at least ones that won't make you wait 3 months because they're super busy), so they come to me because most music shops in Taiwan lack the competency to do a proper setup (because they often go there for that and ended up disappointed).

The key is get as many people as possible to know about you, and doing setups will really help... sometimes you might get a break and your popularity really explodes. I can tell you for certain that people care far more about repair work than someone who can build a guitar, because they all eventually need to be repaired, and people who have the skill to do it right are hard to come by sometimes.

I can bet many full time builders here have done repair work for a while before building professionally... That luthier who got me the bridge repair work, he said he waited a year before a commission came, but he said to be patient, it will come.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Give me a call if you want sometime and I would be glad to discuss the business side of lutherie with you. I build guitars full-time ----- no repair work and no other part-time job. My cell phone can be retrieved from the upper right hand side of my website header (www.fayguitars.com).

I figured this would turn into a great thread. The the small business perspective, I'm fortunate that my mother has operated a small business for over 40 years... So I have some insight into many aspects of the operation. I got in touch the other day with my former guitar/classical composition teacher, because a very good friend of his is a professional luthier who owns a brick and mortar shop for building and repair. I will be meeting with him next week, and the best case scenario in my mind is to get a repair/restoration position and access to the shop after hours to take on my own builds.

I already have my first commission for a friend from music school who is now signed to a record contract and tours nationally. To some extent I hope this will help to get my name out.

I'm at a good stage in my life to take a proper swing at doing this. As to the question of what I do best... That has always been the question for me. My skill and knowledge base is broad, and I consider it to border on being a problem. All I've ever figured out is that when things change in ways that I don't expect them to I always end up in a better place than I started.

Simon-- You probably have a phone call in your future

Thanks to everyone so far, and by all means continue. This is all great input.