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Below is a photo of a "master" Carpathian top I recently received from a vendor (NOT one of our sponsors). I sandwiched one of the panels between two pieces of scrap for the photo and then pulled it into CAD to measure the grain angle, which wanes from 20 degrees at the jointing edge to 40 degrees at the outside edge.



My question to the group is whether there is any consensus regarding how many degrees off vertical is acceptable?

BTW - the vendor did ultimately replace the top, but only after three contentious phone calls, and he insisted I first return the original top at my own expense. When he received it his response was (copied directly from his e-mail) "I did receive the top, I see that one side is not quarter sawn, but the other one is.".

TIA

I'm no expert, so I can't say what is acceptable, but the top you received would be rift sawn, and about 5deg. off of what would be considered to be quarter sawn.

Alex

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Yeah. That top is garbage. The vendor should have given you a new top and not had you return that one. They are probably going to sell it to another person who may not be as knowledgeable and will build a crappy guitar with it.
I wouldnt use a top that was more than 4 degrees off quarter. No need to when there is still so much good wood out there. A vendor selling top wood to luthiers should know better than to try and pawn that garbage off on you.

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PMoMC

If it were me I would not deal with that vendor any longer. There are too many good guys to buy from and that is pretty clearly mis represented. It is good to see an end grain photo before buying just to avoid hassles like this. If he was worth anything he would have paid the return shipping.

See Ya,
Danny

In my world of sawmills, NOT luthierism (if such a word exists), there are a couple of definitions for 1/4 sawn.

1) most commonly (I think) is that the grain of the wood runs from 90' down to 75' off the flat face of the board.

2) secondly, some people like to stretch that 75' down to 45', but ......

I have always sold woodworking (not for luthiers) as follows:

1/4 sawn = 90" to 75' off thee flat face

rift sawn = 75' to 45' off the flat face

flat sawn = 45' to flat

I'm thinking that luthiers might have their own definition for 1/4'd, that having as small a range as say : 5 degrees? (90' down to 85' as an example) whereas woodworkers probably would accept a wider range of grain direction. The person selling the tops may not be deliberately attempting to deceive.

cheers

JOhn

Before I began bending my own sides, I sent out $1000 worth of curly koa to be bent. The vendor, also not a sponsor, told me it was fine and bent well. It was only when I got the wood back that I discovered that they had broken all three sets of wood!! When I asked why they didnt tell me there was a problem the vendor replied, (also a direct quote from their email) "Education costs. Sometimes you pay the teacher and other times you pay for the mistake." They also went on to bad mouth my koa saying it was full of runout and I got ripped off. The wood came from Gallery Hardwoods and Larry Davis is a stand up guy who does not sell garbage. Ever.
Now, I never expected that if my wood broke during bending the vendor would replace it, but if the vendor had simply been honest and said there were issues with bending and the wood cracked, I would not have been nearly as mad. All I wanted was honesty, not a life lesson. I know full well education costs. I paid to have my sides bent to avoid the potential expensive lessons! Needless to say, I never did business with that vendor again and I am happy to share who it is with anyone who asks through PM. The same vendor has screwed over several other hobby luthiers many of us know.

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PMoMC

Im gonna expose my lack of knowledge , but before this thread I would have used it and not thought twice

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When I first started, I would have only cared if it had no color on the show face. Never would have looked at the edge.
Now, I like color ! The more the better!

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PMoMC

A vendor who considers that 'master' grade is probably not a trustworthy vendor.

If you look at the definition of Quartersawing Lumber... They cut the log into quarters, stand the quarters Pointy-side-Up, and saw out boards... Only the very middle boards from the Cant will be vertical grain... As you get farther towards the edge of the Cant - they will run to 45* or so... Literally, anything that is 45* to vertical is called "Quartersawn"... so calling your top "Quartersawn" is in fact correct... If you paid a miller to "Quartersaw" a log - You would get pieces looking just like that.

Now... In our Luthierie practice - what we are really talking about is "Vertical grain".... How close to perfect, vertical grain the top is... Once again, it depends on the Supplier and how they grade.... This is where it's handy to talk about Degrees off vertical... If the guys tells you specifically "Master is no more than 5* off vertical across the entire piece" and you get 20* off vertical - then you send it back because it wasn't vertical enough for you....

Some suppliers look at this, others don't... It's very hard when you are talking about the smaller trees you get in Red, White, Black, and European spruce... The trees just aren't big enough - and so the grades are shifted accordingly....

If you feel it's absolutely important to see Medullary rays - then specifically request a top that shows Medullary rays.... Most suppliers I have dealt with will pick you a top to match up with your request (though it may cost a bit more)... and you may have to accept some trade off to get everything you want.... Say 8.5" wide halves, no runout, low density, perfect vertical grain, absolutely uniform grain lines, AND perfect, uniform color in a real life German Spruce top.... You may be talking about a $500.00 top...

Thanks

I've seen some soundboards that have vertical grain on one edge that goes toward rift on the other. If you use the vertical grain in the center of the soundboard, wouldn't that minimize the effect of the sections that aren't vertical grain (to the edges of the soundboard)? To have it vertical all the way across is almost impossible with certain more-difficult-to-acquire woods like adirondack, at least from what I have seen..

Thanks to everyone for the feedback!

truckjohn - I've always assumed, perhaps naively, that spruce tops for acoustic guitars should be within a few degrees (5 degrees?) of vertical grain by default, and if that's not the case for a particular top, the vendor should make the buyer aware of it. It sounds like you're suggesting the buyer has some responsibility to request vertical grain if that's important to them.

This reminds me of another question...is it more acceptable for AA or A grade tops to be a bit off quarter than AAA/master tops. The question is moot in this instance as the top in question was sold as master grade, but I'm just trying to get a better sense of the perceived standards among the community.

Wud - I won't speak for others but the reason I personally am interested in vertical grain is that it corresponds really well with the cross-grain stiffness of the wood. Here's another photo of the same top pictured in my initial post. It was VERY floppy compared to most of the tops I have flexed, an not what most would expect from a master grade Carpathian top IMHO.

Tony - that is a scary story! I appreciate you sharing the vendor, and am glad (but not surprised) to know it was not one of our supporters here. I mentioned this in my original post, but want to reiterate that the vendor from whom I bought the spruce top in questioned is NOT one of our sponsors here.

I'd like to know who this was. That is not the kind of customer service that deserves my business.

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

On the Curly Koa sides... Well - saying it had runout is total BS... Everyone knows that "Curly" is by definition "Runout"..... I agree that there may be some risk of breakage when you send someone your wood.... But.. I would be mad as fire if I was told everything went fine and then got back a pile of broken up sticks.... I would consider some sort of court action in that case.... or at least publish their names on every single forum and blog in existence as a shoddy supplier...

It would have been different if they contacted you ahead of time and said "You know, there is some risk of breaking sides when you bend super duper curly wood.... We will do everything we can to bend them successfully, but we can't replace this wood it if it breaks... Are you willing to accept that risk?" Then, contact you when the first side snaps.... "Hey man, this first one bit the dust... You sure you still want us to move forward?"

Back to your next question Charlie
- In the end - if you want something specific, it's your responsibility to communicate what makes a top "Master Grade" to you... There are no "Industry Standards" for grading Tonewood...

BUT...

Every tonewood supplier I have ever dealt with was generally very interested in selling Me what I want... so long as I clearly communicate what I want... Bear in mind that what YOU want is different from what someone else wants... and so in the end - everyone has an opportunity to be happy.... For example - Some other fellow wants White and 75 lines per inch, and I want Medullary Rays all the way across the top and low runout....

If you just tell them "Such and such grade" - then you fall back on That supplier's own default grading scheme.... Traditional tonewood grading was primarily done on COSMETIC appearance... The Highest grade tops are the Tightest grain lines, The straightest grain lines, the Most Uniform grain line count per inch across the entire top, and the lightest, most uniform whitest color.... Degrees from vertical, density, and runout were not traditionally considered within the grading schemes - unless you specifically paid for hand picking for some specific characteristics.....

Personally, I have had very good luck paying tonewood suppliers to pick through the tops to find wood that meets my own personal criteria - trading off some "Cosmetic" downgrades for mechanical upgrades... I may end up still paying AAA price for wood that grades AA cosmetically.. but it was selected for other qualities that I believe make a higher "Quality" top from a mechanical or wood cutting standpoint...

In Sitka - Trees are HUGE and still more or less plentiful... You can still get nearly everything you want without having to make too many trade off's.... But... When dealing with other spruces coming out of smaller trees.... You need to decide what's most important to you and allow tradeoffs in the other characteristics....

Thanks

Truckjohn,
I agree that saying the curly wood had runout was a BS move. I also understood and accepted the risks of having it bent. Again, I was only angry that my calls and emails were not returned when I was looking for updates and when I finally got one I was told all was well. Opening up a box of curly Koa fire wood after being told my wood bent well, being lied to, that got me pissed. The kicker was when I was told the "education costs" BS! I'm a big boy and I can handle disappointments and truth. I don't tolerate BS, excuses and lies well. From a customer service standpoint, if I was informed that the wood broke after the first side was ruined, I would still have respect for the guy and might still deal with him. Now? I will never and I will tell anyone who asks that this is a luthier supply house to be avoided.

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PMoMC

Many good guitars have been built from material that have qualities that we discribe as unsuitable. Off quarter wood,runout,wide grain,etc are examples of such qualities. Off quarter wood is not in it's self a bad thing other then the fact it usually has an effect on stiffness. Charlies wood is certainly a good example of that fact.
Too often wood grading is based on visual factors such as perfect even color,even grain spacing,etc with not much concern for the factors that make for the best tone wood. On another forum there was mention of a luthier who goes to a supplier of tone wood and he selects his top wood blindfolded.That way he is only influenced by factors that will have an effect on tone and not drawn to good looking wood.Makes a lot of sense to me.To answer Charlies original question I would expect Master grade wood to be close to 90 degrees over the width of the board. The thing that would bother me more then the wood being off quarter would be how the vendor treated Charlie. Mistakes can be made but treating folks that way is just not right.
Tom

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those are really scary stories, and one of the good things about forums like these is that the word can get out to help the more unwary (of course one could also spread false claims, but things tend to correct themselves in the long run - or at least i like to think so).

most of the tonewood dealers i´ve dealt with so far classify master grade as virtually rid from most obvious defects, but above all with small deviations from vertical grain (1-2º, IIRC) and the least runout possible and tight grain.

on a side note, and excuse me if you find this irrelevant, i also know a dealer who openly sells tops with defects (knots, too small, colour variations, slightly off.quarter, wide grain...) for 2 euros. i buy 50 at a time, get lots of practice tops and wood for reinforcements, linings, backstrips, etc. and still manage to get a couple of usable tops. i think this is one of those win/win situations.

thanks,
miguel.

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member of the guild of professional dilettantes

Tony is speaking about me . He sent the Koa to me and I did tell him about the side pin knots. I do tell people when they send me the wood. Those that do know me know the way I run a business.

No need to PM

Tony from NY was banned from KGF and he has an ax to grind.

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Yes.



Whoever graded that top as "Master" is a fool.
This is the closest I have seen to master grade red spruce, and is undoubtedly more rare than true master grade Carpathian spruce.




In general, I would agree. In my experience, cross-grain stiffness falls off sharply when the grain is more than a few degrees off-vertical.
But.....
My 1937 D-28 has grain that is about 45 degrees in the center, and near vertical on the outer edges. It is one of the best D-28's I have ever played. That has taught me that it's just as important to have good wood and good design as it is to get a perfectly-cut top.



In the red spruce I have cut, I made every effort to keep the grain as vertical as is possible. But the trees were small, and the radius of the growth rings on the inner edge of the top is such that the tops can get off-quarter quickly when parallel slices are cut. That can mean rotating the billet after cutting each top (technically radial sawn, not QS), which is more wasteful and time-consuming. However, along with cutting from split billets to minimize runout, it is the price you pay to get the best tonewood.

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John

Guys I'm going to lock this thread, nothing more of any value will come from it.

Please take up any customer service issues in private.



Thanks
LanceK

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