Official Luthiers Forum!

I have some nice figured Sapelle on-hand and I'm curious how close it compares to Honduran Mahogany tonewise. Jim_H recently mentioned building a Dreadnaught similar to an old pre-war D-18 and I started listening to sound clips on YouTube of these old Mahogany Dreadnaughts and I love the tone. So since I have this beautiful set on-hand, I'm wondering how different it is from Honduran Mahogany. Seems I've read that in general, it is slightly more dense than Mahogany. How much more I'm unsure.........is it about like Cuban Mahogany or more dense? Does Sapelle have that reverby tone that you can get with Mahogany?

I've never played a guitar made from Sapelle (or at least I didn't know it if I did).

Thanks!

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Formerly known as Adaboy.......

Darryl,
I know you know this.
And everytime I ask myself the same (or very similar) question to the one you just asked, I come back to some words of wisdom I read long ago;
I think it was Dana Bourgois (but I can't find the quote to save my life right now)
"No one can listen to a recording or a performance and say 'Hey, that's a really nice sounding rosewood guitar.' People listen to guitars and make the judgement that they're listening to a nice sounding or a crappy sounding guitar."

With a blindfold on, any one of us would be hard pressed to listen to an instrument built by a great luthier and know what materials were used to build it.

Sapele is a fine wood to work with. A nice piece of Sapele will make a nice sounding guitar.

With a blindfold on, I couldn't tell you whether it sounds better than Honduran Mahogany or not. I just know I like building with it.

I especially like buying it because it costs MUCH less than HOG.

But you already knew most of that.

Hope I helped.


The biggest question becomes, who are you building it for? If it's for yourself or someone who doesn't NEED HOG, then you're fine.
If it is going on a wall in a store, it might not fetch the same price or it might hang there a little longer until someone walks in and plays it with a blindfold on and decides it is a REALLY nice guitar.

Dave

I guess the essence of my question is does sapelle sound like mahogany? Seems in general, there is a difference in tone between mahogany and rosewood guitars. Can someone tell the difference between mahogany and sapelle?

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Formerly known as Adaboy.......

Darryl: I have only made one Sapelle guitar and have another on the bench at this time. The one I made sounded very good but I would be hard pressed to say it was much different from Mahogany. But I don't have much of an ear. Some folks say they tend to sound somewhere between Rosewood and Mahogany. Having said that I think you would be happy with doing a Sapelle Guitar.One thing I have noticed is that it has more movement with RH changes then does Mahogany. But nothing to get excited about.
Tom

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A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!

I also have a sapele guitar on the bench right now and I've enjoyed working with it. It has a reputation for being difficult to bend, but I found it pretty easy. It smells nice when you work it, too.

There was a discussion recently over at AGF about sapele vs. mahogany that you might find helpful. Here's a link: http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/foru ... s+mahogany

Yes,
Sapele can sound like Mahogany.

Dave

If you want your Sapele to sound like Hondo, choose one of the less dense/softer sets. Sapele has a large amount of variation and the stiffer/harder/heaver it is, the less it behaves like real Mahogany

-jd

Sapele, on the whole, is denser and heavier than Honduran Mahogany though some of it can be pretty airy. The Janka chart has Sapele about twice as hard as Honduran....which surprises me to learn since it doesn't seem THAT much harder...but there it is...1500 vs. 800 on the Janka chart....still not sure about this.

I've processed several hundered board feet into electric necks and bodies and have found it to machine very predictably. I absolutely love the blemish free purity of it. Maybe I got lucky but the last batch I bought was about (14) twelve foot boards of 10/4 lumber, none less than 7" wide....either straight quarter-sawn or slightly off. After resawing all of it there was only one board out of fourteen which wasn't perfectly clear.

If that's the way of sapele....I doubt I'll ever try to build with mahogany.

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I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic

Who's that one guy who wrote that essay about how sapele IS mahogany or something?

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Old growth, shmold growth!

What?

Todd, that is what I needed to know......sorta suspected that.

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Formerly known as Adaboy.......

i have built a 12 string dred with it, the wood has a cool "chatoyance" under finish, i
found it easy to bend ,the body was a cutaway and i had no problems bending at 300 degrees

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MK5acoustics.com

One of the forum members always posts a link to his essay on how mahogany is really a buncha different woods every time the mahogany vs sapele question pops up.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

The listener across the room may not be able to tell the difference between 2 guitar woods, but the player can, and he's the guy who buys the guitar.

...so is this how the whole "upward-firing-port-in-the-upper-bout" trend happened? i'm still not sure if get that one completely....

Not exactly on topic but I went at great lengths trying to compare Indian to Madagascar rosewood (guitars built with very similar soundboards). What resulted is that it is easier to pick up the difference when listening rather than playing, something different in the "harmonic cloud". When recording, they sound the same.

As for sapele, it tends to be a bit heavier and with a finer texture than American mahogany. It comes pretty close to Cuban mahogany. Like mahogany, the taptone is cardboardish. I doubt they sound much different especially if you thin it a bit more.

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Build log

Amen. For ME, you are right. I even take it a step farther.

Making any decision about the quality of a guitar based on a recording is fruitless for me. The factors affecting the quality of sound of a guitar go well beyond the quality of the wood and the luthier. The chain includes the strings maker and strings age which have a great effect. The room it is being played in has a GREAT effect (hard floors with low or high ceiling, carpet floors with low or high ceiling, big room vs small room, etc.) Then we have the recording and play back which has an almost infinite number of variables. What mic was used (HUGE effect)?, where was the mic placed (HUGE effect)?, what recording equipment was used?, what recording EQ was used (HUGE effect)?, what pre-amp, power amp, and speakers are used to play it back and listen (a computer, a stereo system, an audiophile system - HUGE effect).

I evaluate acoustic guitars from the sound that comes out of them when I know the maker and age of strings and the room I am listening in. I can't, even a little, evaluate an acoustic guitar from a recording since I know that the long complex, infinitely variable, chain that delivered that recording makes my judgement useless for me. The effects on the sound from that long chain of variables have a far greater effect than any wood or luthier skill IMHO.