Fish Glue - Whats so Great About it?

Bryan Bear · **Posted:** Wed Nov 16, 2011 11:20 am

So you can reactivate hide glue for repair, and you can do the same with fish glue. What if you don't know which was uses? One of the great advantages of both is that you don't have to clean up old glue when you reassemble something. Does anyone know if you can use one glue to reassemble a joint originally glued with the other? It seems like -- to a point -- collagen glue is collagen glue, but I'm not sure.

Michael Lloyd · **Posted:** Wed Nov 16, 2011 11:23 am

WaddyThomson wrote:

Being a collagen glue, can be re-glued without clean-up on repair jobs. As a matter of fact, some situations may just require re-moisturizing dried glue. It has a bit higher temperature release than HHG, and requires the insertion of some moisture in the joint. That said, it is a bit hygroscopic, and if the conditions of humidity and heat are high enough it can release on it's own. Dave White, DeFoite Guitars, had a good example of that with his daughters guitar, though the conditions were somewhat extreme, as I understand it.

While clamp times are long (12 hours) it has a good initial tack, and can be used for rubbed joints, and things like gluing tentellones without clamping at all. It pulls parts together as it dries in a similar fashion to HHG. It also works well thinned for flooding rosettes, but can stain some tops on the open end grain edges of a rosette channel. Sealing with shellac might be a solution to that issue.

I've switched from HHG to Fish Glue for the past 2 years and can say that they are very similar in property except the prep time needed for HHG and the waste. Which is why I switched and will stay with Fish glue.

I'll have to agree with Waddy statements. Give it a try. Once you see and experience the benefits it will be one of the glues you reach for first.

As an added plus it's made in both Canada and the US!

"We have two manufacturing locations, one in New Jersey USA and our sister plant, Kenney & Ross, in Nova Scotia,Canada. Some of the products we manufacture include fish gelatin, ultraviolet curing optical adhesives, UV curing electronic adhesives, and fiber optic equipment. "

Michael.N. · **Posted:** Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:33 pm

Bryan Bear wrote:

So you can reactivate hide glue for repair, and you can do the same with fish glue. What if you don't know which was uses? One of the great advantages of both is that you don't have to clean up old glue when you reassemble something. Does anyone know if you can use one glue to reassemble a joint originally glued with the other? It seems like -- to a point -- collagen glue is collagen glue, but I'm not sure.

I've done that on one occasion and it seemed to glue fine, although more tests might be in order if you really want assurance.

WaddyThomson · **Posted:** Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:06 pm

Michael Lloyd wrote:

I'll have to agree with Waddy statements. Give it a try. Once you see and experience the benefits it will be one of the glues you reach for first.

I was just noting some of the points of Fish Glue, not making recommendations. I use it most for flooding rosettes. I use very little in structural application on a guitar. My go-to glue is HHG most times, and I love LMI White when I'm in a hurry to get some stuff done. I have occasionally used it to glue backs. I really don't like the 12 hour clamp time.

Michael Lloyd · **Posted:** Wed Nov 16, 2011 2:01 pm

Sorry Waddy. I didn't intend to link you with an endorsement. Though I understand it could be taken that way.

My apology.

sdsollod · **Posted:** Wed Nov 16, 2011 2:26 pm

mmmmm.... okay, lets see... beehive

Negatives
- Sensitive to humidity
- Harder to release when repairing
- Glue line more visible
- 2X to 4X the clamping time (~12 hrs.)
- Harder to clean (although someone said easier to clean...)

Positives
- Long shelf life
- good tack
- dries hard / crystalline
- doesn't creep

I don't know if I'm convince of it's greatness. I find the LMI white to be pretty easy to use. It has good tack, drys clear, pretty easy to clean, short clamping time, easy to make repairs.... Are there certain steps that fish glue lends itself to?

Michael.N. · **Posted:** Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:07 pm

Way overstated. Firstly, it's just not that sensitive to humidity! It would have to be a ridiculous environment for it to be an issue. I'd like more people to do tests on this.
Glue line more visible: Don't do bad joints.
Long clamping time: A negative but then again you get the long open time.
Harder to clean: HHG is a little easier. Not a huge factor IMO.

It won't entirely replace HHG in my shop. I use it where I like it's advantages.

Peter J · **Posted:** Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:19 pm

sdsollod wrote:

mmmmm.... okay, lets see...

Negatives
- Sensitive to humidity
- Harder to release when repairing

I usually don't post to a thread unless I have had specific experience with the topic at hand and feel that I can answer the question in an intelligent manner and be of some help.... A little "tongue in cheek humor" never hurts also... :-)

In regards to sensitivity to humidity; you'd have to immerse the parts in question for quite a while for the glue to soften enough to weaken/loosen the joint... Maybe like here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8CFZ2T6CaM

In regards to releasing when repairing, yesterday I worked on a repair job and used my HotShot steamer and a palette knife to remove about 16" of kerfed lining that had been installed with fish glue. The whole job took about 10 minutes and cleaned up neat as a pin. YMMV... but experience is the best teacher.

Rod True · **Posted:** Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:34 pm

You know what's funny, even Franklin (maker of titebond) suggest a 24 hour clamp time for stressed joints idunno

From the titebond website

What is the clamping and drying time of Titebond Wood Glues?
For most of our wood glues, we recommend clamping an unstressed joint for thirty minutes to an hour. Stressed joints need to be clamped for 24 hours. We recommend not stressing the new joint for at least 24 hours. For Titebond Polyurethane Glue, we recommend clamping for at least forty-five minutes. The glue is completely cured within 6 hours.

I've pulled backs and tops out of my go bar deck after 2 hours to shape braces with fish glue used, any squeeze out was hard like HHG at that stage. I wouldn't do it on a bridge but then.....

Colin Symonds did a very good moisture test on fish glued joints awhile ago, I can't find the post on it, but here's a post where Alex M did a similar test, Colin posted his results near the bottom of the thread...The question of high humidiy cycles is one that is often brought up when talking about fish glue, two thoughts on this...high end guitars should be well cared for (although we all know this doesn't happen) and should not be put through such rigors... but it happens. I don't know, Fish glue has been used for a long time in piano making, think of all those large glue joints, instead of HHG for simply the longer open time...I think we could bash at it for decades really, it's sort of like any glue thread, some folks swear by one type, while other's say it's blasphemy to use anything other than ___(fill in the blank)___

The power of suggestion is amazing. Try it for yourself, the only way you'll ever know if you like it or not.

Rod True · **Posted:** Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:32 pm

Filippo Morelli wrote:

Rod True wrote:

You know what's funny, even Franklin (maker of titebond) suggest a 24 hour clamp time for stressed joints idunno

Hey Rod,
I think the issue is something else maybe. It's not so much full strength. That cure may be 24 hrs for both as you say. The issue is that you really need to leave the fish glue stuff clamped up for a long time - 12 hours by Norland's recommendation. Comparatively LMI white sets up in 30 minutes. You won't want to stress the glue joint, but you can unclamp and continue working with the piece.

This is why I say people have to work in their shop with the stuff - it's all about process and how you incorporate into your workstyle. We all do stuff (and think about things) differently. For some it may not work advantageously. For others it may ...

Filippo

Totally agree Filippo

nyazzip · **Posted:** Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:13 am

drawbacks: don't go camping with your instrument in grizzly country and bring it into your tent! hungry grizzly come in at 3AM and eat you and your guitar!
[xx(]

same with hide glue i imagine...

Dave White · **Posted:** Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:24 am

WaddyThomson wrote:

That said, it is a bit hygroscopic, and if the conditions of humidity and heat are high enough it can release on it's own. Dave White, DeFoite Guitars, had a good example of that with his daughters guitar, though the conditions were somewhat extreme, as I understand it.

They were extreme indeed. It was a double-necked acoustic lap slide guitar I made for one of my daughters. She moved to a basement flat where a bathroom had been installed contrary to building regulations with a very inept water extraction system. This resulted in a constant supply of water being delivered to the wall where my daughter kept the instrument on a stand and a humidity environment of pretty much 100% for about six months. There was mold and other exotic fungi growing on the walls :shock:

With twelve strings for tension and these sauna conditions this was a real long term test and the lower bout area basically unglued itself and "unzipped".

The repair was "interesting" and I documented it here on The Luthier Community Forum.. I happily used fish glue for the repair/re-build as these conditions wouldn't be repeated and the instrument is fine. The really good thing about the fish glue in this case was that it did release and let the instrument slip apart - with hide glue it would have held and the top back and sides would probably have cracked under the extreme distortion.

One thing that the collagen glues do is dry hard and are not likely to cold-creep. My understanding is that the alphatic glues never really cure at a chemical level with the molecules effectively still sliding over each other permanently.

I'd pretty much echo the pros and cons listed in this thread and as first choice I use hot hide glue and where I need the open time I use fish glue.

Tai Fu · **Posted:** Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:57 am

What if you live in a subtropical country where the RH is never less than 80% and getting it down to 40% means a LOT of money in electricity?

Dave White · **Posted:** Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:04 am

Todd Stock wrote:

PV/AR are thermoplastics...add some heat, then they live up to the 'thermo' and the 'plastic' part of the classification by creeping. At normal temps and in thin glue lines, there's no measurable creep and things are fine. It's all about whether the guitar will see a hard life (high temps) or easy one.

My point was that they can creep without heat by nature of their molecular structure (at least as far as I understand it). Doesn't mean that they will but they can.

Mike Collins · **Posted:** Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:37 am

I like the open time.
Especiaslly for cracks in tops & such!
Where you need four hands to help!
It's strength.
Flooding rosettes as Waddy has said.
Ease of use as apposed to HHG.
BUT both smell like hell!

I've used it for 7 years now with NO glue joint failures.
Even in hot humid times.
The price is great if you buy it from Norland and share with others.
Give it a try!
Mike

Arnt Rian · **Posted:** Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:32 pm

Or buy a big bucket and store most of it in the freezer until you need more. I've used it for years, along with hhg, Titebond and ca glues. They all have their place, and do some things better than the other. Try it and and fond out for yourself!

mqbernardo · **Posted:** Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:31 pm

This may be a bit of a tangent, as the cost puts it out of everyday use, but what about the sturgeon bladder glue (isinglass?)? does it share fish glue´s qualities?

thanks.

Don Williams · **Posted:** Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:46 pm

I guess I can't speak for anyone else about the stuff, but I love it and am using it for everything these days.

Don Williams · **Posted:** Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:18 pm

I concede defeat...

wow7-eyes

Link Van Cleave · **Posted:** Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:27 pm

Filippo Morelli wrote:

Hey I'm using it more than you, Don. I brush my teeth with it. If you got the runs, one swig and you're all normal again. I'm silly with the stuff. Silly I tell ya.

Filippo

Filippo, You have incriminated yourself as a Jerky Boy affectionado. laughing6-hehe

Hmm, I just did myself. laughing6-hehe

L.

Steve Saville · **Posted:** Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:26 am

Michael.N. wrote:

.......... I use it where I like it's advantages.

This is, at least to me, the best thought in this thread. [clap]

The same should be said of all glues. We need to understand the advantages and disadvantages of all the adhesives in our arsenal, and use the one that best works for the application and our assembly method.

There are advantages and disadvantages to all adhesives, even HHG.

Chris.Conery · **Posted:** Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:21 pm

Tai Fu wrote:

What if you live in a subtropical country where the RH is never less than 80% and getting it down to 40% means a LOT of money in electricity?

What about using a desiccant in the guitar case like:
http://www.silicagelpackets.com/dry-pac ... ister.html

Anybody ever used something like this? No electricity required.

Tai Fu · **Posted:** Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:33 pm

Chris.Conery wrote:

Tai Fu wrote:

What if you live in a subtropical country where the RH is never less than 80% and getting it down to 40% means a LOT of money in electricity?

What about using a desiccant in the guitar case like:
http://www.silicagelpackets.com/dry-pac ... ister.html

Anybody ever used something like this? No electricity required.

The only problem is that these desiccant packs are going to cost a lot more than electricity used in dehumidication. It's so humid here we'd be going through them very quickly.

Sometimes I just wish things aren't so humid here.

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