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A luthier friend of mine (Steve Brown) gave me a small bottle of fish glue he got from John Hall. I've been using LMI white. Is fish glue better? I've done a forum search and haven't really gotten some concise answers. Does it have some desirable characteristics? Is it good for some things but not others?
Steve

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Steve Sollod (pronounced sorta like "Solid")
www.swiftcreekguitars.com

Its an equivalent to using hot hide glue, but at room temperature and with a longer working time.

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Ditto. Long working time, good tack, dries hard and crystalline similar to hide glue. Doesn't have the creep that PVA has. Very easy cleanup with a slightly dampened paper towel.

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Peter

Being a collagen glue, can be re-glued without clean-up on repair jobs. As a matter of fact, some situations may just require re-moisturizing dried glue. It has a bit higher temperature release than HHG, and requires the insertion of some moisture in the joint. That said, it is a bit hygroscopic, and if the conditions of humidity and heat are high enough it can release on it's own. Dave White, DeFoite Guitars, had a good example of that with his daughters guitar, though the conditions were somewhat extreme, as I understand it.

While clamp times are long (12 hours) it has a good initial tack, and can be used for rubbed joints, and things like gluing tentellones without clamping at all. It pulls parts together as it dries in a similar fashion to HHG. It also works well thinned for flooding rosettes, but can stain some tops on the open end grain edges of a rosette channel. Sealing with shellac might be a solution to that issue.

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Waddy

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I once did a not so scientific test of Fish glue. Placed a bowl of water on a very hot radiator with a couple of pieces of glued wood resting on the rim of the bowl, plastic bag over the whole affair. Wasn't exactly air tight. After around 3 hours I tried to break the joint. Wood failure.
Even real life joints where I've made a mistake and wanted to release the joint aren't so easy - and that's going at it with heat and moisture. It would have to be freakish and extraordinary circumstances for joints glued with Fish glue to give way.
At least that's my experience of the stuff.

Shelf life is amazing. I have a bottle that I got in Dec 07. I do a break test with that glue every 6-8 months. Two pieces 1x1 maple glued at 90*, leave clamped for 24 hours, last one I did (I should do another) I got total wood failure, still using this bottle on the guitars I'm currently making, just make sure it shaken and stored dark, dry and cool.

What's not so great about it? Well the only thing might be the length of time required before stressing the joint, mind you I'd probably want to leave anything glued with titebond at least 4 hours and 12-24 for something like a bridge before I worked it (not that I'd use titebond on a bridge again, fish glue is just better here). Since most of my work is done at night, the next day or night I'm ready to go at it again. Everything else is just easy with fish glue.

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Are we talking about the Lee Valley fish glue?

Bill

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Formerly know as Mandodiddle.

That's what I use, but I'm pretty sure it's just Norland fish glue rebottled.

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"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Lee Valley Fish Glue is Norlands. Awesome stuff.

I find that LMI White has a longer shelf life than they generally recommend. I keep checking mine, but it has lasted for over two years without issue. I usually order mine when I'm ordering something else. I always place at least one order a year or two with them.

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Waddy

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Great discussion....

Besides the long set time, (which is an adcvantage or a disadvantage depending on how you look at it) are there any other disadvantages of fish glue relative to HHG?

It just sounds so much easier to use.....

I'd say no other disadvantages at all. There area my who haveade full switches from HHG to fish glue, myself included. It just too easy to pull the bottle out of the cupboard and go...

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"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

I don't know where to get fish glue.... maybe I buy some fish at the market and make them into glue?

Neither LMI or Stewmac sells it, I just got a bottle of Titebond from Stewmac so I can use it for gluing rims only...

A chemical supply house in Taipei claims to sell fish glue, I am not sure if that's the same stuff...

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

As said, Lee Valley sells it. If you´re in germany (IIRC you lived there, right?) Kremer Pigments also sells it (along with Hide and bone glue, shelac, seedlac, resins, etc.)

cheers,
miguel.

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member of the guild of professional dilettantes

Seems like a hassle to me but I've never tried it. I don't like long set times. I just built a Flamenco guitar almost entirely with CA. Talk about fast

Thanks, Todd. Good perspective.

A good data page for Norland High Tack Fish Glue is here: http://www.norlandprod.com/fishgel/hightack.html

Of note is the high end of the temperature range 500f. Much higher than most other adhesives.

So you can reactivate hide glue for repair, and you can do the same with fish glue. What if you don't know which was uses? One of the great advantages of both is that you don't have to clean up old glue when you reassemble something. Does anyone know if you can use one glue to reassemble a joint originally glued with the other? It seems like -- to a point -- collagen glue is collagen glue, but I'm not sure.

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

I've switched from HHG to Fish Glue for the past 2 years and can say that they are very similar in property except the prep time needed for HHG and the waste. Which is why I switched and will stay with Fish glue.

I'll have to agree with Waddy statements. Give it a try. Once you see and experience the benefits it will be one of the glues you reach for first.

As an added plus it's made in both Canada and the US!

"We have two manufacturing locations, one in New Jersey USA and our sister plant, Kenney & Ross, in Nova Scotia,Canada. Some of the products we manufacture include fish gelatin, ultraviolet curing optical adhesives, UV curing electronic adhesives, and fiber optic equipment. "

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Michael Lloyd

“I was born to ignorance, yes, and lesser poverties ...
I was born to privilege that I did not see ... I didn’t know it, but my way was paved” – John Gorka

I've done that on one occasion and it seemed to glue fine, although more tests might be in order if you really want assurance.

I was just noting some of the points of Fish Glue, not making recommendations. I use it most for flooding rosettes. I use very little in structural application on a guitar. My go-to glue is HHG most times, and I love LMI White when I'm in a hurry to get some stuff done. I have occasionally used it to glue backs. I really don't like the 12 hour clamp time.

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Waddy

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Sorry Waddy. I didn't intend to link you with an endorsement. Though I understand it could be taken that way.

My apology.

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Michael Lloyd

“I was born to ignorance, yes, and lesser poverties ...
I was born to privilege that I did not see ... I didn’t know it, but my way was paved” – John Gorka

mmmmm.... okay, lets see...

Negatives
- Sensitive to humidity
- Harder to release when repairing
- Glue line more visible
- 2X to 4X the clamping time (~12 hrs.)
- Harder to clean (although someone said easier to clean...)

Positives
- Long shelf life
- good tack
- dries hard / crystalline
- doesn't creep

I don't know if I'm convince of it's greatness. I find the LMI white to be pretty easy to use. It has good tack, drys clear, pretty easy to clean, short clamping time, easy to make repairs.... Are there certain steps that fish glue lends itself to?

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Steve Sollod (pronounced sorta like "Solid")
www.swiftcreekguitars.com

Way overstated. Firstly, it's just not that sensitive to humidity! It would have to be a ridiculous environment for it to be an issue. I'd like more people to do tests on this.
Glue line more visible: Don't do bad joints.
Long clamping time: A negative but then again you get the long open time.
Harder to clean: HHG is a little easier. Not a huge factor IMO.

It won't entirely replace HHG in my shop. I use it where I like it's advantages.

I usually don't post to a thread unless I have had specific experience with the topic at hand and feel that I can answer the question in an intelligent manner and be of some help.... A little "tongue in cheek humor" never hurts also...

In regards to sensitivity to humidity; you'd have to immerse the parts in question for quite a while for the glue to soften enough to weaken/loosen the joint... Maybe like here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8CFZ2T6CaM

In regards to releasing when repairing, yesterday I worked on a repair job and used my HotShot steamer and a palette knife to remove about 16" of kerfed lining that had been installed with fish glue. The whole job took about 10 minutes and cleaned up neat as a pin. YMMV... but experience is the best teacher.

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Peter