Official Luthiers Forum!

douglas ingram wrote:
"One thing to pay attention to, probably a greater issue that the chamfer of string holes, is the break angle of the strings. If you have too much angle you are putting a lot more torque on the saddle. This may or may not be an issue for some people. "

A steep break angle puts a lot of tipping force on the top of the saddle, which can split out the front of the bridge. The best ways to fight that are to leave more than the usual 3mm, or so of wood in front of the saddle (I set the saddle back 5mm from the front edge), and angle the saddle back so that, in the side view, it's not perpendicular to the top. If the saddle bisects the break angle, there will be _no_ net tipping force, but even a few degrees helps a lot.

I use both 12 & 18 hole bridges.
I went to the 12 for "Flamencos" and they have worked out great.
A bit more break angle-helps with their playing style.
The string does not slide or vibrate on the saddle.

I got the 18 hole idea from Jose Romanillos.
David L. can help on this but I think it was his idea to start with.
I like it allot-you can dress up the tie block(make it look hot) and string dings are a thing of the past.
I use on all my classicals.
I took a 18 holer to Montreal 4 years ago & Charles Fox & Ervin S-----------
Were like WOW!!!Nice idea!
But I told them it was Jose's & it was a NICE idea.

Mike

_________________
Mike Collins

Indeed Mike,
Jose' Romanillos is universally credited with the 18 hole design.

I was introduced to it in 2007 during my time studying with him at his course in Spain.

David;
Are you in touch with Jose at all?
He must be getting up there in age .
Did ya have a good location in Woodstock?

Mike

_________________
Mike Collins

All my saddles are set back 5 mm from the front edge too.

I actually don't mind melting the little ball on the end of the string. You really only have to do it for the high e, but I usually do it for all of the trebles, just for safety sake. None but the e have slipped, so far. The e is nearly always held by the ball. That said, I still like the clean tie block. totally a visual thing for me. Once I learned to do the 18 hole tie, it takes me no longer than any other tie. Slanted holes (all of them) helps a lot. Did that on #9 and really liked the way it worked.

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

I've read somewhere (maybe here?) that so many holes weakens the tieblock structure and sometime end up splitting the tieblock away from the bridge.

Has anyone heard of that? Or worst, experience it?

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Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

No, Here is why I do not think this is the case.
First off, any fracture of a tie block would be through the string holes as this becomes the weakest point and the point with the most stress.
It could certainly be argued that a simple six hole bridge would be more likely to fracture seeing that the entire string tension is concentrated on that line of holes. An eighteen hole bridge has not only dispersed the tension between two sets of holes, it has also distributed it between two potential "fracture" planes (along the grain) instead of one.
Come to think of it, I can't say that I've ever seen even a six hole bridge fail (unless it was used with steel strings) in this way.

Well, that's my only fear... but it's not based on anything but instinct, maybe I'm wrong and it's still strong enough.
I'm giving it a try, and we'll see. I'll keep my tie block high, so I keep a good mass around the holes.

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Francis Richer, Montréal
Les Guitares F&M Guitars

I'm not sure this is true. I don't think that multiple holes for a single string will 'disperse' the tension on the tieblock for that given hole. The tension is on the tieblock, not the hole. So if you have 80 lbs of tension, no matter how many holes you have, it's the entire tieblock that will carry those 80 lbs. That's why it seems to me the more holes, the weaker the tieblock.

That said, this entier thing may be a non-issue, as maybe an 12 or 18 holes tieblock can carry very well any tension 6 strings may pull. If no one ever had the misfortune of experienceing this, than I think it's safe anyway.

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Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

I'm not sure quite in what way you believe the extra holes are "weakening" the tie block.
I agree that the overall tension is on the tie block as a whole but in a practical sense, a failure is going to be along a grain line (just like a six hole type) and because the upper holes do indeed take some of the load the sheer force at any given point on the block where the holes are drilled is less.
Of course the total force of the block on the base of the bridge is the same for each type.
The 18 hole design does however allow for keeping this force lower and closer to the top because there is no upper loop pulling the string up and thus there is less leverage to pull and rotate the bridge.

Well you may be right on the multiple holes dispersing the tension. I guess I may not have weighted all the factors. Regarding the multiple holes 'weakening' the tiebolock, I agree with you that a split will occur along the holes line, but in a 12 or 18 holes bridge, you have 3 sets of 6 holes in line, so 3 times more chances of a break (sort of, I'm simplifying). In addition, it seems natural to me that by removing material from the tieblock, you make it weaker. But I'm most concerned with bridges where the 12 holes are all in the same line. Most 18 holes bridges I've seen have this configuration where 12 of the 18 holes seem all in line.

Then again, I was just wondering. I'm in no way trying to discredit this design. If it works, I will most certainly use it, specially the 18 Holes where the tieblock can be free of strings passing on top of it!

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Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

You actually only have two lines. One with 12 holes and another with 6 holes. The upward tension is on the 6 hole row. The tension on the upper line of holes is not up at all, but front to back. I have never heard of an 18 hole tie block breaking. David, how long has Romanillos been using it?

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Waddy,
A quickie survey of Jose's guitars shows a 1991 instrument with a 6 hole bridge and a 1999 guitar with the 18 hole type.
I couldn't find any examples between those years to narrow it down so I'm going to guess the mid 90s.
I too would like to know a bit more precisely the date of this as well.........

What if the central hole is set higher than the two outside holes? Then incoming from the bridge, back through one of the other holes, up and over the incoming and back through the third but just nipped off flush at the back. I'd think that the additional crimp up over the central string would be enough to add locking as it comes up to tension, no?

Alan D. (not a classical guy)