Official Luthiers Forum!

I have an inquiry from Japan to quote on a model which I have previously sold to clients there over the years.
The last one was in the old days (you know, last year) where it was a simple pack-it- up-and-ship-it-out.
With all the new restrictions I feel the need to ammend my pricing to account for the new export/import requirements.

Here is my thinking:

-I should do a special materials purchase from suppliers who can provide country of origin documentation for the Indian rosewood, European spruce, Mahogany and ebony in the guitar. I need to have the species and countries of origin documented in order to import into Japan.
-There is no pearl (i.e. wildlife products) on the is models so I don't need the F.F.W.S. export license.
Question:
-What if any document or form do I need to ship out of the U.S.? And does anyone know the Japan requirements for entry.

Part of this is of course figuring out how to do this, the other is to determine just how much of a surcharge to place on this beyond the normal price.

Lastly, is anyone brokering this stuff in and out of the country yet?
Seems like a tidy living could be made by someone who knows the ins and outs of this and could perform the service for us little guys.

Thanks in advance for any info and insights.

Best!

Just include the price of a ticket for the guy to come and pick it up. It'll be cheaper.

(Sorry, this Lacey stuff must be finally getting to me!)

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Trevor Gore, Luthier. Australian hand made acoustic guitars, classical guitars; custom guitar design and build; guitar design instruction.

http://www.goreguitars.com.au

Good questions, David! I'm awaiting your answer with "Bait Breath"!

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

I can't give you a good answer either but maybe this will help with the way you think about charging more.

I bought wood online from a supplier I have purchased from twice before. I don't want to name the company but they have been around awhile and have been good to do business with. I asked them to include any Lacey relevant paperwork. This is the response I got...

I can send along with your order a letter on our letterhead stating that the Spanish Cedar & Cocobolo was imported by us before 2008 (which it was) and therefore before the Lacey Act amendment. This is free of charge. If you want a Lacey Act form which includes the correct US Customs forms, we have to charge $50.00 per species or entry because of the large amount of time it takes to retrieve the information from our archives. If you have any questions give me a call.

Since the total order is less than $200, I first interpreted this as a nice way of saying "screw you". But then I thought about digging through files and filling out forms for every stick of wood you sell and the price seems realistic.

It's a mess....

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http://www.chassonguitars.com

Thank you for your observations Kent.

I'm curious why you wanted the Lacey paperwork as the Lacey act pertains pretty much to imports only.

Were you wanting species and country of origin documentation for export? (vis a vis any questions relating to cities).
Or, did you just want to be able to prove the wood was legally imported in case anyone (unlikely I think) came knocking at your door?

Best!

Most of my sales are out of state and I had 2 international sales last year and at least one scheduled for next year. It's my understanding that any guitars I ship interstate are supposed to be accompanied by Lacey paperwork. And for international shipments, CITES would apply for both species I ordered (and for the mahogany that you mention) so I wanted to have as much documentation as possible.

This was just a response to the pricing part of your question. Not only should you account for your time in doing your paperwork, you may also have to account for paying your suppliers to do their paperwork.

Hope this makes better sense this time.

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http://www.chassonguitars.com

Won't the new owners need the Lacey paperwork if they decide to travel with their guitars?

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Jim Hansen

I also exported a guitar this year, and it seemed the Lacey paperwork was to document the train of import of the wood I used.
Maybe it was the shell.

If it wasn't necessary, I wasted a bit of time on that.
I gathered all the info of what I needed from that long thread here that was going at the time.

If I get an inquiry for export, I'm begging off until this mess is straightened out.

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https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100008907949110

Me too. I already turned one guy down.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

I'm rather inclined to refuse this order as well but I thought at least I would try to analyze just what additional time, trouble and expense would be involved in accepting it.
I don't see Lacey as being particularly applicable here (hoping I can get the paper work with my supplies) other than being able to document the species and origin of the woods involved.
I assume that I have to fill out a Cities declaration for importation into Japan.

Even though I have everything I need to make this model sitting on shelves in my shop, none of it is documented as to where it came from or when, so obviously the cost of buying supplies at full retail price will have to be factored into the price quoted.
As I mentioned earlier, there are no "wildlife" products involved here (MOP or Abalone) so I should not need a F.F.& W export license.
So, in a nutshell I'm thinking it's just the Cities Declaration (with the attendant Lacey papers to prove species/origin).

Am I correct here??

David I exported a guitar this year too. I struggled with what to do like everyone else. I thought lacey only had to do with wood coming into the states and CITES governed exporting material . I just did the normal customs paperwork as I had no Appendix 1 CITES listed material in the guitar. Everything worked out fine. I may have been just lucky.
I like the idea of having the customer come pick it up.

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

CITES applies to anything going across national boundaries. Different countries have different ways of enforcing it. My understanding is that the US now does it via the Lacey Act.

Lacey applies to _any_ product obtained 'in the wild'. The only wood that is not included under that is plantation grown. Almost all of the wood you get will be 'wild'.

At the moment, the intent is to only enforce the Lacey extension on wood on imports of worth more than $2000. That was supposed confine it to pallet-sized shipments of wood, vener, or lumber, or loads of furniture, and so on. Nobody thought of the fact that most good guitars cost a lot more than $2000. Given that, and the prevalence of tropical hardwoods in guitars, and we're suddenly getting a lot of scrutiny.

We do have to remember, though, that Lacey aplies to _interstate_ commerce, with no 'de minibus' exemption, and that could kick in any time. As sticky as things seem to be now, they could get much worse without some sort of change in the law.

Clarification - CITES applies to anything that is CITES listed going across borders. So, for instance - Indian ebony is not CITES listed at all - CITES doesnt apply - Gibson is being held hostage for import rules and regs, not for breaking any CITES rules. Even though Honduran Mahogany is CITES listed on app 2, the listing says that it only applies to rough lumber in board and veneer form. Finished products, like a guitar neck on a guitar, are exempt.


Go to the CITES site and read up on the species you are using .. if they are not listed there, then there are no CITES regs to worry about. You wont be able to get CITES import paperwork on something thats not CITES listed.

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Also, Lacey is not an international treaty like CITES. It's US law and as Al pointed out it can indeed be invoked when crossing state lines.

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

What a mess . . . I know we're not supposed to talk politics, but has anyone contacted their legislators? Any word from them?

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Adam

Thanks all for your observations and replies.
I did copy and highlight the extensive thread that appeared here a few months ago so I need to review that as well as the materials from the A.S.I.A. workshop which I attended.

I think there is a real opportunity here for an enterprising individual to figure all this out and become a broker to assist the rest of us in the proper preparation and shipping of our products internationally.
I suspect there is a lot more money to be made there than in making the guitars.

edit: sorry, mis-posted.

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http://www.chassonguitars.com