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Many thanks for the reply Kim. I've loosened the strings and will let it rest for a couple of days and contemplate my options.

1. Do nothing. Seems like an option but am still uneasy about the amount of deformation.

2. Add a couple of little braces. May not solve anything.

3. Remove and replace up to four of the existing braces. Lots of work done internally and blind with unknown results or structural integrity.

4. Add 2 new, thin fan braces to compliment the existing braces.

5. ????

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I don't know if it is an option to you, but I would definetely consider lowering the bridge/saddle. If your string height above the top is 1/2", and you managed to get it down to 7/16", it would reduce the torque load to the top by 12.5%. That is more than the difference between a set of mediums and a set of lights.

If you mostly play in the first position, you could achieve this simply by loosening the truss rod. A better way would be to shave the fingerboard. You could remove 1/16" the whole way, or taper it by removing nothing at the nut and 1/32" at the 12th fret. Or, like I mentioned earlier, an adjustable neck

Thanks,
Sondre

Thanks Sondre but that's way more work than is going to go into this guitar. I'm not building any more so any of those suggestions are just beyond my abilities or desires at this point - but I won't forget your advice. (BTW The strings are just shy of 1/2" high at the bridge - always use lights.)

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Thanks so much for the post Todd. I'll keep an eye on it and thanks to everyone who posted!

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I agree with Kim (I think) that the source of the problem (which does not yet seem severe) is the "finger" braces. They should be giving more longitudinal support. I do not think that the transverse brace below the bridge is the culprit. How to deal with those finger braces? I'm not sure.

Were you trying to mix in some Kasha with those finger braces?

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Sorry Howard...Sometimes when I write stuff at 3am, bleary eyed and minded and with a fresh batch back eliminators in the system, it would seem that I do have the capacity to create my own language of sorts..But it was good to see you were able to decipher as I have trouble with that myself at times in the clear light of day.

Cheers

Kim

I guess I would like to see the X-brace closer to the ends of the bridge pins. The X-brace is barely under the bridge at all. To me most of the pull is behind the bridge, instead of tapering it into the X. My outlook on it, Jas

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Jason Moe
LaCrosse WI 54601

Thank you for the reply Filippo. I'll do some measurements this afternoon after work.

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Yeah if i were to build it again tomorrow I'd probably do just what you suggest Jason but will have to live with it as it is.

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The distance between the straight edge and the guitar top at the lower bout, measured as suggested above, is a little less than 1/4".

Sorry, but cannot remember the radius that the guitar was built to.

The crease is no doubt the brace telegraphing through and was my main concern.

Are the above numbers acceptable?

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I would think those two lower braces would benefit from bridging over your lower center seam, as in a traditional martin design. That one area doesn't have any bracing to strengthen that joint other than a diamond scab and those two lower fingers go at only a slightly different angle with your grain, which doesn't really do much I'd think...

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"Preoccupation with an effect gives it power and enhances the error"
from "Your Owner's Manual" by Burt Hotchkiss.

Thanks so much for your thoughtful replies. I will keep an eye on the belly and the brace 'print through'. If it worsens much I'll try a little of everything suggested. And of course you probably know this already but the more I leave it strung and bellied the better it sounds and it does indeed sound lovely.

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Bearing in mind that I'm not much more than an uninformed student of lutherie, and that pretty much everyone in this forum has forgotten more about lutherie than I actually know, here's my interpretation:



I would be worried about the horizontal brace beneath the bridge plate rising and doing just what it appears to be doing in the photos, with around 145 pounds of pull from the strings and the bridge trying to rotate toward the peghead. If the saddle is high, the leverage would be even further increased.

Also, with one brace at more than 90 degrees instead of two at 90 degrees up by the waist, I'm thinking that might be further encouraging the problem.

I'm not sure what effect the two more or less vertical braces at the bottom are having on the situation up by the bridge plate, but I would be concerned about them impeding desirable top movement and damping the bridge from rocking.

The solution I propose is, of course, the same old song. But at this point, I'm not in any position to be recommending experimental bracing arrangements. Please, take everything I say with a grain of salt. I'm probably the least experienced person hanging around in here.

By the way, that redwood/bloodwood combo is one I've been daydreaming about, love it! Best of luck with a solution on this beautiful guitar!

Rick

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Rick

If it ain't broke,
don't fix it.
If it breaks,
then re-top/re-brace.
Especially if it sounds good!

Thanks again for your thoughts.

I will indeed leave it as it is for the time being and watch it for any extreme belly or other progressing problems and if any develop I will try a couple of different additive braces and see if they arrest those serious problems. And of course it is indeed an experiment in bracing, perhaps a brilliant idea, perhaps a colossal failure but it does sound very unique and I guess that might be one reason to brace a guitar in any way 'other' than what's being done on most every other steel stringed guitar.

The difficulty is only in the future work, if any needs doing, as I haven't built a guitar in a while nor do I plan to build another, so 're-topping' the guitar will probably not be done by me and represents quite a large expense so I'll stick it out and see where this 'experiment' leads.

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Thank You and Best To All

I wanted to follow up on this post just to add to the wonderful data base of knowledge on this site.

I continued to watch the top as originally built and just wasn't comfortable with it's distorted shape and wasn't confident it would stop moving so I decided to add a couple of braces. I did not disregard the warnings about tone and how those braces might effect that tone but decided to plow forward anyway. I didn't have any spruce around so I shaped some maple shoe molding for the braces.

The two red braces I added first. Similar in shape to the original two but perhaps thinner and a bit lower. I did all the work from the outside using CA glue so the placements weren't perfect by any means. One brace even ended up cross grain more than I wanted but what was done was done. I kept the same strings on it so I'd have a tonal benchmark, even though we know our ears can hear whatever we want. After restringing the tone was actually improved to my ears. A little more sustain, not much more headroom, perhaps a bit more complex sounding but still very very nice to my ears.

Very happy with the results but the top was still a little more bellied than I wanted to see so of course if a little is good than more is better right?

So I was back to add more bracing - this time the blue braces. Smaller and thinner but the same general 'domed' shape as the originals and the red braces. I also put new strings on because the old ones were getting pretty old. After stringing it up I had the same general surprise as the first added braces and it sounded great! Again I would say even better than before. Much more sustain that I could tell even while stringing it up. Lots more headroom. Complex overtones (good and bad) and still very sensitive to finger picking with much more bell like tones in the treble and a deeper punchier base.

Of course it can be said I just really wanted to hear a difference and without a direct A/B I'm pretty much making it all up but the point is not that I may or may not be hearing things correctly but that adding these braces did not ruin the tone - at all. This actually surprises me quite a bit as I had no idea what effect would be and believe me when I tell you those braces did not go on in anything near a symmetrical fashion but they did the trick both tonally and structurally as the top is much less bellied and seems to be stabilized as well.

I hope this post helps someone in the future when deciding about a bracing scheme as it seems there are many ways to skin the bracing cat and in this case there's a happy ending.

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Very colorful! =)

I'm just curious, and I may have missed it in the thread.

What is the scale length of this guitar, and what gauge strings do you use?

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Jim Hansen

I'm in the wait and see camp. Some folks see such bellying and telegraphing braces as sign of a responsive guitar. If the setup and action is good, and the bridge does not further rotate, worry about building other guitars. If you don't have one already, buy a dial string hieght gauge from stewmac and check the action every few months to see if there are changes (apart from changes due to seasonal humidity changes).

If you do need to take action, you could try the Bridge Dr. I think Breedlove uses the same system on most of it's guitars. Certainly would affect the tone of the guitar, but sure beats retopping and isn't a difficult fix.

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Aaron Craig

I am also in the wait and see group..... The belly alone wouldn't be much of a concern to me personally.... I don't like creases... but if they are stable I might ignore them...

The most immediate thing I would do is to re-measure the 12th fret action and adjust the saddle height as needed.....

Creases around the bridge around MY instruments always seem to correlate to either gaps between brace components... or not enough bridge overlap of the X-brace legs.... That's what I would look at first if it were mine....

Thanks

Yeah maybe it was red and blue spruce that I used - I forget now.



25.4" and light strings.

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Thanks Aaron,

I'm also now back in the wait and see camp and will monitor as you suggest. I do not feel comfortable seeing the telegraphing either, which prompted this thread and the additional bracing. Only time will tell now and in the meantime I'm really enjoying the guitar. It always sounded good but now I can't wait to pick it up. Thanks again for the reply.

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Thanks truckjohn,

I haven't looked in either place you suggested - but will - if it keeps moving.

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