Official Luthiers Forum!

The Department of Justice earlier this week issued an affidavit and opinion declaring that all Indian rosewood and Indian ebony fingerboard blanks are illegal. The ruling is based on the fact that the World Trade Organization's harmonized code for sawn plank, which best describes a fingerboard blank which will be processed further, is 4407. The Indian government's insistence on using the trade code for musical instrument parts, 9209, describes a finished part which a fingerboard blank is decidedly not. Consequently all Indian rosewood and ebony fingerboard blanks are illegal because they were imported with the wrong code, and because India prohibits the exportation of unfinished domestic woods over 6mm which would export under the correct code of 4407.

Have a nice day....

F-in brilliant. Do you have a cite?

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

When I get a copy, I'll post it.

This gets crazier and crazier...................this is the new way to help mess up the world economy a bit more.............!!!
Tom

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A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!

So that's only if they came from India?

Kevin Looker

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I'm not a luthier.
I'm just a guy who builds guitars in his basement.
It's better than playing golf.

So... As of earlier this week... It's the Justice Department's opinion that every single guitar in the entire USA that was made within the last 20 years is illegal?

I suppose that this could also be some sort of action to try to get the Court's to decide if the recent amendments to Lacey were actually constitutional/enforceable or not..... In effect - they are correct in their assertion by the way the amendments to Lacey are actually written.....

I mean if this particular affidavit is held up in court - Almost every guitar owner in the USA would have to forfeit their guitars.....

Thanks

The ruling only applies to Indian ebony and Indian rosewood fingerboards. It doesn't apply to Gaboon ebony, for example.

Truckjohn, this isn't a partisan issue. Lacey was cosponsored by Sen. Lamar Alexander (R-Tenn), among others. Bush vetoed it twice and his veto was overturned.

I understand it isn't a partisan issue - it's an issue where our currently deadlocked Congress won't do their job to sort it out....

With the guitars out there already... How would one find out whether the fingerboard on your instrument was from India or somewhere else? Especially on a a "Budget" instrument... Remember, it's the OWNER'S sole responsibility to prove it's legal.....

Yeah, they might be from Madagascar!

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Waddy

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Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Truckjohn, it isn't clear that Congress won't make any modifications to Lacey. The industry is quietly working with representatives to give them a roadmap as to how to reasonably resolve many of these issues.

Seems like this would be a huge blow to LMI, who apparently owned the IRW blanks that were seized. The feds can have Gibson, but we need LMI.

-jd

David I received an email from my supplier in India stating that a group of suppliers (exporters) in India petitioned the court in India for a ruling. He states that the magistrate ruled that the export of fingerboards from India using Trade Code 9209 was legal. Copies were sent to Indian Embassy in New york as well as other countries. However I have yet to see anything in writing.

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The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

Wouldn't that make back and side sets illegal as well?
That means that potentially all acoustic guitars in the country are illegal.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

Bob, I have letters from the Ministry of trade that say the same thing. The problem is that it's a World Trade Organization issue -- India can't unilaterally decide to export fingerboards fitting a description of 4407 under 9209. The US is following WTO. India needs to formally permit their export under 4407, or the US needs to recognize India's little quirk.

Backs and sides are under 6mm and are exported legally under the code for Veneer.

That is taking the term literally. In a more general sense, it is any thin wood, regardless of whether it is glued to a substrate.

As I recall, the laws that India enacted about exporting rosewood are much older than 20 years. For example, India's ban on exporting logs came soon after the Brazilian rosewood embargo in 1969.

Yes. Much of the Dalbergia latifolia lumber available today is plantation grown from Indonesia.

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John

"neck veneers" that is great. We should all type that when we mean fretboard form now on.

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

I understand David. They need to change something as they are contradicting their own law. So who decides if the product is finished enough to export. India or the WTO. The fb's I order will be tapered and sanded. India seems to think that is good enough as far as finished product goes. That's what all this is all about. Some folks keep talking about illegal wood which this has nothing to do with.

_________________
Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
http://www.rctonewoods.com/RCT_Store
The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

Just one more reason why manufacturing has fled the US.

Why is that? I don't see the connection. India is assuring work for their people. Maybe the US should try and do the same.

_________________
Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
http://www.rctonewoods.com/RCT_Store
The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

I bought some Indian ebony that arrived tapered and I was had to glue a strip of wood in order to slot them.

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Build log

Unfortunately, that's not true....
The Lacey act doesn't really differentiate between whether it's "Illegal" because you poached an endangered species or whether it's "Illegal" because it's miscategorized on the Custom's paperwork because the NATION it came from chooses to categorize a "Finished product" differently than other countries do......

Shoot... The paper toilet paper you wipe your butt with could just as easily get you arrested because some logger in Canada forgot to pay his stumpage or because some pulpwood importer brought the wood in under the wrong customs code by mistake..... That toilet paper in your bathroom is now "Contraband" under Lacey and you are subject to search, forfeiture, and arrest.... and YOU are under strict liability to prove otherwise....

How could you ever prove it? Do you really think that Kroger keeps that good of records on their house brand TP of exactly what log went into what roll of TP? What roll of TP went into exactly what package? What package was sold to you?

That's why the law as written is such a horrible mess....

John what I meant is Indian RW and Indian Ebony are not protected species and NOT on CITIES list. Even under Lacey it's not the species of wood that's illegal it's the form that it's in. Not a veneer at 10mm thick. I think your getting carried away here. I don't think the government is going to checking anyone's toilet paper no more than they give a dang what wood your fretboard is made from. It's the big players they are after.

_________________
Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
http://www.rctonewoods.com/RCT_Store
The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

Our point. India is assuring work by legislation which allows more workers to, well, work, on a product. Our govt is making a big effort to make it hard for us to comply with these laws. It'd be easier to build guitars in India, or Madagascar, or even Brazil than here in the land of the "free", USA. When you have armed federal officers breaking into a guitar manufacturer just because someone didn't sign a form correctly, things are just getting too far out of hand. This makes people scared, and we have ARTISTS feeling like freaking meth dealers!

I'm not siding with our government. Just stating some facts instead of hearsay.
We buy the same wood so this is hurting us too.

There is some good info here.

http://www.eia-global.org/News/Update_GibsonRaid.html

_________________
Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
http://www.rctonewoods.com/RCT_Store
The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

So, the Indian intention is to export fingerboard blanks, and the Indian government says it is ok. However, there is no tariff code that describes partially finished wood products. So, what tariff code to use? India decides to use 9209 because 4407 is illegal, and if they used 4407 that would open the floodgates to other products that are illegal to export. Indian government says that is ok and milions are exported over a period of 30 or so years. US government now says fingerboard banks are 4407 and we don't care what has happened in the past nor what the Indian Government says, and millions of musical instruments are now illegal. F-in wonderful!

This is a paperwork problem, and currently there is no solution because there is no tariff code that properly describes (legal) fingerboard blanks. So due to a missing tariff code we are all in the s....