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Mustang_jt
 Post subject: Anyone tried EM7000?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:35 pm 
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Hi all, I was about to order some more EM6000 and saw that they now have EM7000 which appears to have the same description as EM6000 except it is a high build formula. I then went to the Target Coatings forums and someone posted that it was available at StewMac, and sure enough it is there. Anyone tried this? If so, how does it compare to EM6000. Thanks

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Matthew Jenkins
 Post subject: Re: Anyone tried EM7000?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:15 pm 
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Thanks for posting this John, I was about to do the exact same thing.

I've been using Em6000 with excellent results. However, I'm in the UK and being able to buy from Stewmac would be soooo much easier for me.

I too would be really interested to hear if anyone has any experience with the Em7000.

Thanks

Mat
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Andy Birko
 Post subject: Re: Anyone tried EM7000?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:13 pm 
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Too funny - I just got the new Stewmac and noticed the same thing and was going to ask as well!

Although I have a gallon of EM6000 in my basement that I have to use up first...gotta build more!

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Ken C
 Post subject: Re: Anyone tried EM7000?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:35 pm 
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I hadn't seen it yet, but the high building aspect of it sounds interesting. I have used EM6000 for three plus years. About the only time I seem to have film formation issues is when I am towards the end of building up a bunch of coats. Wonder if this formula addresses that issue. Hmmmm....

Ken

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Dave Stewart
 Post subject: Re: Anyone tried EM7000?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:38 am 
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Interested to hear first hand accounts too.
Took a trip over to the Target forum and here's what Jeff Weiss has to say about EM7000
The new EM7000HBL is different ina few ways when compared to the current EM6000 formula.

1. EM7000HBL is non-yellowing, whereas the EM6000 does turn to a straw color over time, very much like nitrocellulose. The EM7000 will not color shift over pigmented finishes, i.e. custom paint work, labels and special effects.

2. EM7000HBL is higher in total solids. It is also composed of a different resin structure that allows for a faster film build. The EM7000HBL does burn into itself, but in a "infinite" way the EM6000 does. (Not sure if he means "not in an infinite way") Performing repair work with the EM7000 will be similar to repairing a catalyzed lacquer, i.e. the cured film is less resistant to its own solvent package, therefore not allowing for burn-in after full cure has taken place. However, the early / green-stage film burn-in behavior is very good, and will allow for fresh coats to melt into themselves prior to cure.

Some other comments over there. Jeff is sometimes a bit vague to direct questions like "I'm using EM6000 on guitars and like it. Should I switch to Em7000 as an "improved version"?"

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banjopicks
 Post subject: Re: Anyone tried EM7000?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:08 am 
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Dave Stewart wrote:
1. EM7000HBL is non-yellowing, whereas the EM6000 does turn to a straw color over time, very much like nitrocellulose. The EM7000 will not color shift over pigmented finishes, i.e. custom paint work, labels and special effects.
This could be a plus or minus depending if you want clarity or a look similar to lacquer.

2. the cured film is less resistant to its own solvent package, therefore not allowing for burn-in after full cure has taken place. However, the early / green-stage film burn-in behavior is very good, and will allow for fresh coats to melt into themselves prior to cure.[/i]
Yeah, seems like he meant more resistant to it's own solvent.

Some other comments over there. Jeff is sometimes a bit vague to direct questions like "I'm using EM6000 on guitars and like it. Should I switch to Em7000 as an "improved version"?"


To me, it doesn't sound like an improvement for guitars unless the finish can somehow be reactivated chemically for touchups. How long before full cure takes place? I tend to need to do touchups early in the process and really don't care much about down the road but it would be nice to be able to. I hope we get more answers on this because I really want to switch to waterborne on my next build and I can't decide what to try.

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Mustang_jt
 Post subject: Re: Anyone tried EM7000?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 1:39 pm 
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The fact that StewMac is carrying it instead of the EM6000 makes me wonder why they would use it over EM6000

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Mustang_jt
 Post subject: Re: Anyone tried EM7000?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 1:54 pm 
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Found this tidbit on the Target Coatings forum from Jeff Weiss

"7000HBL (EM7000 High Build Lacquer) is a new WB lacquer in our quiver that is non-yellowing and designed to be a straddle between the EM6000 and the 9000sc in terms of price/performance. Some of our production houses need a non-yellowing product for use over painted surfaces, that meets the clarity of the 9000sc, but with EM6000 price point. EM7000HBL has been in OEM production for the past 18+ months with good results, mainly as a satin finish, with a tweak needed for a high gloss format. With this adjustment for the high gloss version made we expect fine results from our high gloss users."

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Dave Stewart
 Post subject: Re: Anyone tried EM7000?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:05 pm 
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Yeah, I saw that John. He's kind of saying "better product ...same money". But it's sounding like it is different. And, never having used the 9000 (and with some 6000 still left) I'm inclined to wait 'till I hear some reports.

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Matthew Jenkins
 Post subject: Re: Anyone tried EM7000?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 4:26 pm 
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I fail to understand why Stewmac would sale EM7000 as a guitar finish when the 6000 is a tried and tested guitar finish??
Makes no sense to me at all idunno
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CharlieT
 Post subject: Re: Anyone tried EM7000?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:20 pm 
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Matthew Jenkins wrote:
I fail to understand why Stewmac would sale EM7000 as a guitar finish when the 6000 is a tried and tested guitar finish??
Makes no sense to me at all idunno


I think the StewMac brand waterborne lacquer IS EM6000, or essentially so anyway, so carrying EM6000 labeled as such would be redundant.
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theguitarwhisperer
 Post subject: Re: Anyone tried EM7000?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:10 pm 
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Sounds functionally like a catalyzed finish.

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Hupaand
 Post subject: Re: Anyone tried EM7000?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:57 pm 
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Maybe it's the High Build aspect. 6000 doesn't make that claim that I can find.
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Mike OMelia
 Post subject: Re: Anyone tried EM7000?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:06 pm 
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I think I would be interested in this EM7000.

Has anybody tried the EM9000?

Mike
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Mike OMelia
 Post subject: Re: Anyone tried EM7000?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:10 pm 
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CharlieT wrote:
Matthew Jenkins wrote:
I fail to understand why Stewmac would sale EM7000 as a guitar finish when the 6000 is a tried and tested guitar finish??
Makes no sense to me at all idunno


I think the StewMac brand waterborne lacquer IS EM6000, or essentially so anyway, so carrying EM6000 labeled as such would be redundant.


The way it was explained to me is that it is a "custom" formulation made by Target but essentially it is EM6000.
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Mustang_jt
 Post subject: Re: Anyone tried EM7000?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:08 pm 
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I emailed StewMac to see why they carry EM7000 over EM6000 here is the response


" Thank you for contacting us. We like the 7000 because we feel that it has better clarity than the 6000 and you're able to get a better finish with less coats.
Feel free to contact me if you have any more questions."

So, Clarity and High Build.... But is it better?

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Mike OMelia
 Post subject: Re: Anyone tried EM7000?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:54 pm 
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Dare anybody ask the blue haze question? This is not acrylic, right?
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Dave Stewart
 Post subject: Re: Anyone tried EM7000?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:07 am 
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Stewmac catalogue calls it "acrylic lacquer".

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Mike OMelia
 Post subject: Re: Anyone tried EM7000?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 10:18 am 
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Well, then it should still be an issue. I am fascinated by the EM9000, however, I would like to hear more on the product. I may buy some and give it a whirl. I am also fascinated by the higher solids content of EM7000. I usually have to apply 20-25 coats before I am satisfied with the film thickness (EM6000).

Mike
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Bryan Bear
 Post subject: Re: Anyone tried EM7000?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:57 am 
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I have no experience with these products but I wonder if one could build with 7000 and finish with 6000 allowing future repairs (probably a dumb idea. . .). I also wonder if it can be brushed on like the 6000.?.

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Mike OMelia
 Post subject: Re: Anyone tried EM7000?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:47 am 
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Bryan Bear wrote:
I have no experience with these products but I wonder if one could build with 7000 and finish with 6000 allowing future repairs (probably a dumb idea. . .). I also wonder if it can be brushed on like the 6000.?.


According to their website, 7000 has 100% burn-in capability
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Bryan Bear
 Post subject: Re: Anyone tried EM7000?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:57 am 
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Mike O'Melia wrote:
According to their website, 7000 has 100% burn-in capability


But, not after "full cure."

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Daniel Minard
 Post subject: Re: Anyone tried EM7000?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:16 am 
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I bought a can of 9000 by accident a few months ago. (thought I was ordering 6000, but musta dumb thumbed the order)
My summer work gig is winding down & (as soon as I get the accumulated rubble cleared away & I can see my benches again) I'm going to do some test panels with the 9000. I'll let y'all know how it goes.
This is my first foray into waterbornes, so I won't have any basis for comparison...
The 7000 does sound interesting. Higher build is a GOOD THING! Looking forward to hearing some first hand accounts when some of you guys try it out.
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Mike OMelia
 Post subject: Re: Anyone tried EM7000?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:42 am 
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OK... after cure, its a no go. Is that true with 6000 too?

I will be interested in the 9000 experiment.

Mike
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SteveSmith
 Post subject: Re: Anyone tried EM7000?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:06 pm 
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I was under the impression that 6000 would still burn in after cure. I've had good luck with doing repairs after up to a year with no witness lines.

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