Official Luthiers Forum!

Maybe that is as far as the suppliers "concern" goes.
Buyers should be more concerned than what a seller in a foreign country tells them in the process of making a sale. When did he read this? Was it since the India law was changed or updated? I seem to remember reading that the export restrictions were in-acted in 2010?

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Lance Peck

Jeepers creepers, all I am doing is quoting the reply I got from him. He did read the Gibson affidavit, and he does export wood and music instrument parts so should know the rules. There is no sale involved, I have never bought wood from him. Also I would not take "concern" literally, his english is obviously far from perfect. If that is not enough for you then contact someone in India yourself.

Sorry I did not mean to offend you, only conversing. I was not trying to discredit what your contact said and am very curious if it is accurate. I have been contacted by many EIR dealers in India and have not been told the same thing twice about the rules. I don't deal with EIR so I'm not concerned either way.

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Lance Peck

Thanks, but I was not offended, just a bit annoyed. Sorry about that.

Looks like the situation in India is a bit chaotic, which certainly does not come as any surprise to me. My Indian contact did tell me that the Gibson raid is big news in India. He is very concerned that it will make it a lot more difiicult for him to send wood to the USA now. He does sand all his fingerboard blanks and bridge blanks in order to stay within the rules. I would expect he would not be the only Indian wood supplier who is very concerned, and maybe that will trigger some Indian government involvement. It is surprising that F&W did not contact Indian authorities. Hopefully Gibson has deep enough pockets to pay the lawers since this is beginning to look like a real lawer's feast.

OK as long as you were only annoyed, I can live with that.

Just for fun here is what one supplier from India told me...
"Our country have regulation for exsport wood
The size wide x thick not more than = 4000 mm."

That does not match anything said recently or what I found in writing.

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Lance Peck

Just another supplier that doesn't know what he is talking about. Not too unusual. The fact of the matter is that the fingerboards in question would not have been able to leave India if they were indeed illegal. Same fingerboards that most every manufacturer and builder is using.

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Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
http://www.rctonewoods.com/RCT_Store
The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

Interesting posts--thanks. I'd like to know where the 12mm spec comes from... I couldn't find it in India's HS lists. Maybe those lists are out of date, or Indian customs has their own standards, or ___?

I imagine like many of you, I'm still wondering how EIR can be legally imported into the US to be thick enough to use as a fingerboard or bridge. HS 44XX appears to be out, which just leaves HS 9209? But we don't know how finished a stick has to be for 9209 -- some unknown amount more than a sawn rectangle, per David B's post on page 6.

For those that understand Lacey, is it India's interpretation of a HS class that matters, or the US's, or both?

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David Malicky

Depends on what the definition of "is" is.



Not quite - they would not have been able to leave India if they were inspected and found to be illegal. If all the paperwork is in order but no one actually looks to see if the export shipment matches the description in the relevant HS code, well then.....

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The member formerly known as erikbojerik....

Haha

Eric I find it hard to believe that no one has inspected and found finger boards to be illegal after all the years they have been exported and the huge amount exported each year. I just wish the Indian gov would step up to the plate and clarify their law.

_________________
Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
http://www.rctonewoods.com/RCT_Store
The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

Absolutely agree.

The apparent trigger on this latest warrant is a particular shipment of fingerboards from India, which most here would agree makes no sense, bordering on frivilous, as there is no threat to the species and India is apparently comfortable with export of this material in this form.

However, the warrant has been worded to seek permission to search computer files (and other records) "that might serve as direct evidence of the crimes described on the warrant, but also for forensic electronic evidence that establishes how computers were used, the purpose of their use, who used them, and when". This seems to cast a rather broad net that would permit the government to search for evidence of other related crimes.

What other crimes? For starters, recall that there was a raid in 2009 that siezed Madagascar ebony. The feds have signalled their intent to file charges, but have not yet done so. Meanwhile, Gibson (and their broker) have been trying through a civil suit to secure the return, claiming that nothing was out of order. A request filed by the DOJ in June attempted to get this suit stayed, presenting information that suggests the material was knowingly obtained through unauthorized channels, is therefore illegal, and that there can be no legitimate claim to ownership of contraband.

The feds have not dropped the Madagascar ebony case, and examination of Gibson's files obtained in this latest raid might well hope to provide further evidence to prove their claim of what many would consider to be a much more serious allegation, and perhaps other violations pertaining to trade in plant and wildlife materials. I'm no lawyer, but the warrant appears sufficiently broad for the newly found evidence (if any) to be used as further evidence to file criminal indictments in the Madagascar ebony case. I suspect that this raid was as much, perhaps more, about the illegal import of Madagascar ebony, which is indeed threatened by a history of unchecked exploitation.

I hope you are right.... but you are expecting the government to be efficient?
They likely never had a reason to look closely before Gibson caught their focus.

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Lance Peck

Mark Levine had the CEO of Gibson on the radio tonight. Go to his website to hear the interview.

Very interesting what the CEO is doing to enlist support and create awareness!

Mike

Just to put this politically charged discussion into some political perspective, Tennessee's own Lamar Alexander (R-Sen) was a co-sponsor of Lacey.

The Lacey Act was in fact started in 1900 , But there were so many amendments to it . This law is so difficult to interpret . This is not CITIES which is a treaty for endangered species .
http://www.animallaw.info/articles/ovuslaceyact.htm
then it was amended in 2008 . This is where things get out of control. I agree we need to respect other countries law and protect the environment but some of this is impossible with the way the law is written . We need a better way of getting good information from the Government about this and how to be compliant . Even when you call you can't get the same answer twice for the same question .
From what I glean off the Gibson case it is about a 2mm difference on the fretboard blanks , which makes the blanks a sawed log . It is verbiage like thin in India's law that is making this an issue from what I read but there are 31 pages to go through .
You need to keep all your paperwork in order as you don' t know when they will come to small shops also . We need , as a group to contact our congress people and let them know how you feel . We don't need to change the rules just simplify them so we can understand them .

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Here is one perspective... that the paper industry and protectionism is at the root of this (not that I agree or disagree with it):

http://pulpwars.com/

Gibson CEO references this idea in a press conference video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vz9X3_5F ... ata_player

The truth is probably a composite of separate conservation and protectionist interests, politics, bureaucracy, and more.

The reality is probably that this is not going to change.

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David Radlin
http://www.facebook.com/radlin.guitars

Its hard to understand how it would possible for a group of commercial entities, environmental lobbyist, unions, and select government agencies to come together and develop a strategy to achieve a mutually beneficial anything. Even if they did, what shared outcome could that be?? Even if 'that' could be identified, it is impossible to imagine how they could affect anything together when they all struggle separately to manage their 'own' affairs.

I am all for uncovering the conspiracies of the world but to do so one usually needs at least one stone to turn. To suggest that all this is part of some grand design seems to overstate the intellect of the shaven apes who had delivered this mess and understate the greed of those whose activities had awakened them to legislate and fart before rolling over to go back to sleep.

Cheers

Kim

+1 This thread has been VERY informative, and I too appreciate Lance allowing it to continue.

Great thread.

To those defending the Lacey Act; I would have you understand the depth and origin of the emotional reactions against it...if you can.

This country is a recent and fairly exclusive example of a nation formed by people taking initiative to control the direction of their lives. The nation was founded and grown by those who transplanted themselves, abandoned everything familiar, and thrust themselves into the unknown...for the purpose of having opporutunity or simply to avoid tyrrany. Though we are many generations from them that spirit passed to us and lives in us. Freedom is venerated more here than anywhere. A viceral reaction is to be expected when it is perceived that a state or authority can arbitrarily exercise power.

A brief study of history offers the perspective of both the beginning, the middle, and the end of tyranny. Too many examples of tyranny began with small, seemingly innocuous steps that appeared well intentioned at the start. Don't underestimate the ability of human beings to become totalitarian, tryannical, and fascistic as their authority increases with their political power. Sure, we need to protect the environment...but offering arbitrary authority to low level bureaucrats is not something that's going to happen without a fight in this country...provided we are informed of the encroachment of authority. To that end I truly wish our media was filled with intelligent patriots...but it's not.

Perhaps it's better for us if we don't study history?

It's not about wood or the environment....it's about freedom. Those that don't understand and venerate this basic motivation will never understand the emotion behind this issue...and will dismiss such admissions as paranoid or extreme...or deride them as "Tea Party" members...because they're an easy target.

But mediatate on this for a few minutes please:

When the wolf is at your door...he's already eaten a few of your neighbors.

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I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic

Dear Zlurgh,

The Lacey Act is not inconsistent with principles founded in the Constitution. The Constitution doesn't permit unfettered freedom. It doesn't permit someone to yell "Fire" in a crowded theatre. We all have to live on this Earth together. Just because I can, doesn't mean I should pour Chlordane in my neighbor's garden, their water supply, and so on. Freedom is a funny thing, it also requires responsibility. If we continue to use resources at a rate inconsistent with their ability to regenerate themselves there will be no wood from which to build. Perhaps, with a little discipline, we will again be able to build with Brazilian rosewood, and other woods, but not in my lifetime. I look at guitars being made now and it is astonishing that the materials being used are the same that many of us who've been at it longer would never have considered using -- the quality has gone way down. We're looking at a maximum of 10 years of Alaskan spruce if something isn't done to manage the forestry. We've been involved in a national debate about spending and debt and the burden on the next generation of Americans. What about the next generation of American guitar maker's ability to have resources from which to build?

Gibson's problems are divided. In the first instance it's unclear about their culpability, given the release of emails indicating a willingness to purchase wood on the grey market. On the other hand, what happened to them last week is ridiculous.

Preach it, brother!

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

On what is this statement based?

Talking to Bob Taylor a few months ago.

I recently read the same thing on the Net, though I don't recall where, but I wondered if there might be a common source of the info. I am dubious of it's accuracy.