Official Luthiers Forum!

David, I got that reg from their complete list of exports put online for importers to determine the exportability of any Indian product. (which includes bio weapons?).
I have no idea whether the Indian Customs office determined that fingerboards are a finished product. The issue is that if they did they probably made a "mistake" based on the Indian law. It does seem like a fingerboard blank could be considered a finished product.... until you read the definitions of a finished product....

2.1.5.6 Finished Lumber and Wood Products: Lumber and wood products that will Not undergo further processing and are ready for sale to the final demand user, either an individual consumer or business firm. This includes soft and hardwood lumber, plywood and millwork products. This does Not include furniture (see Finished Furniture and Household Durables) or pulp and paper products (see Finished Pulp, Paper, and Allied Products). (Definition Source: The Producer Price Index)[quote]

I have personally tried to argue this point in several government offices with always the same result. I have always been informed by officials that for wood to be considered a finished product it had to be in a condition that dedicates it for one use, by the end user.

How does the use of a fingerboard blank differ from the use of a 2x4 stud? The fact that it is used to make a guitar is not really different than a stud being used to make a house. Fingerboard blanks could be used to make jewelery boxes in the USA in direct competition with Indian craftsmen and I'm sure that is what the intent of the Indian law was to prevent.

I'm just trying to use logic about this rather than what we think it should be or want it to be. Gibson is getting the shaft but so far the things they have offered in defense are not going to help them much.

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Lance Peck

I seem to have lost the link bookmark, it was published on the Indian Embassy in Bejing.
I'll see if I can find it again.

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Lance Peck

That would be great if they are actually allowed and Gibson actually acquired what is specified as exportable.

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Lance Peck

Here it is

http://www.indianembassy.org.cn/Commerc ... ubMenuId=0

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Lance Peck

If Gibson is being persecuted for being in possession of unslotted indian rosewood and ebony fingerboard blanks then most luthiers, guitar manufacturers, and suppliers must be in danger.

I don't agree with that Lance. If we are in fact talking about a load of fretboard blanks, I think Gibson will successfully argue that the product 'has' been defined for single purpose without further process. The product is a fingerboard 'blank' which is a separate product to a completed fingerboard. These finished products had been acquired by a company with no other use for wood converted to those specific dimensions. To my mind, and I dare say the the minds of the Indian legislators, your analogy with 2x4 stud doesn't work because the same could be then be said for finished jewellery boxes, what is to stop them from being reworked into bridge pins and bridge pins being reworked into tooth picks for leprechauns??

If the FWS has alleged that a breech of the Lacey Act has occurred based upon their own interpretation of Indian law and those allegations are challenged, then a USA court cannot allow itself to be influenced by the FWS's interpretation. Rather a magistrate would need to take council from the Indian Government on how 'they' interpret 'their' laws. If Gibson Guitars have the paperwork that ticks all the boxes in relation to that advice, then the FWS is sunk regardless of how they view a tapered stick with saw marks still in it. On the other hand, if Gibson had knowingly received wood with properties outside those stated on the import documentation, then hang on to your old Gibson because they could well become collectables of a bygone era.

Cheers

Kim

I am just happy to see this is all finally coming to a head now. The end result of this should see reforms, and who knows, if this case causes enough pain for the stupidity unleashed in the first drafts, then those reform just may finally make this legislation workable. Until people can look at the Lacey Act with a degree of respect that it is the best way we have to deal with the really bad situation created by poor management of resources in the past, it will have no effect other than to scare the wits out of good honest people and breed further mistrust of much needed conservation law.

For small builders in the USA its very fortunate that Gibson has been challenged now as they have the funds to stand the required distance to force a reassessment. If the iron fisted, dictatorial approach enacted upon them had been applied to any of you guys, it is hard to see how any one of you could withstand the financial challenge. The main problem with that being such lack of challenge would, over time, deliver legitimacy to this law in its current form and validate the way it is currently being enforced and I don't think anyone would be happy with that.

Cheers

Kim

Let's hope that's the road they choose. The cynic in me sees a scenario where Gibson works things out on the DL with the government leaving them free to harass Gibson's competitors.

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

Glad to see this discussion back on track.

Is a pity there are no pictures of the Indian Ebony under question. If they are indeed guitar fingerboard blanks then F&W are going to look a bit silly since thousands or probably millions have been exported from India over many years. If they are actually "sawn logs" then Gibson does have a problem. Hopefully they are fingerboard blanks and something good will come from this. Otherwise we are all in trouble.

Okay, at this point, we're all just speculating. We don't have any of the facts. We're trying to read between the lines. I don't want to miss out on the fun, so I'll add my speculation: Gibson= guilty as charged. Remember, I'm just playing my hunches.

We know that government corruption is rampant in India. (Anyone been following the hunger strike?) I'm guessing that if you are a large U.S. company, with connections and money, you can get an inspector to look the other way. The "Gibson" company is just a name. I don't understand why small builders would identify with a huge corporation that has traded hands several times, built guitars that varied from historic to worse than garbage, moved out of state because it didn't want to negotiate with the workers who had built its reputation, and moved much of its production overseas.

Nor do I have much respect for FWS. When I worked in commercial fishing, we were boarded at sea by inspectors once. Asked if he had any silver salmon on board, our captain admitted that he had two.
Silver salmon season didn't open for two more days, but it was the (slightly dishonest) custom in the fleet to count opening dates by when the catch would be delivered to the dock. We were required to bring the illegal catch on deck, and surprisingly, the captain had to identify the illegal fish. The inspector couldn't tell a Silver from a King! (Coho v.s. Chinook for you northerners.)

So why do I suspect Gibson is guilty? I admit, corporate greed v.s. government agency incompetence--that game should play to a draw. The stories say that the shipment was mislabeled. Sawn logs were listed as "fingerboards". Maybe these were fingerboard blanks that FWS considered "sawn logs". or maybe these were large lumber billets listed as "fingerboard blanks". Importantly, the shipment wasn't listed as a Gibson import. It was delivered to an anonymous warehouse, and later retrieved by Gibson. Gibson knew it was being watched, and tried to cover its tracks. Why hasn't FWS filed charges on their previous raid? They want an air tight case--evidence of continued, deliberate violation--hence the latest bust.

Again, I'm playing my hunches. We all are. We'll see how this plays out.

Don, the problem of "sawn logs" comes from the FWS officer's Affidavit where he describes a shipment of "25 bundles of Indian Ebony wood (Diospyros ebenum) in the form of sawn logs consisting of one thousand two hundred and fifty (1,250) pieces sawn to the dimensions of 510/530 x 75/70 x 10mm and 510/530 x 72/62 x 10mm ." Those are fingerboard blanks.



Interestingly worded section. My problem with the definition is that plywood is a product that does undergo further processing -- people don't only use full sheets of plywood they make other things with plywood. Similarly, fingerboard blanks get changed into fingerboards. It's a poorly written regulation.

Additionally the affidavit only cites HS Code 4407 which goes to their argument that India prohibits the export of sawn wood. LMI used the HS code for musical instrument parts. The difficulty here is that there was a determination in 1993 CBP that indian and ebony fingerboard blanks were to be classified under 4407.



The problem here is that there is no information in this determination regarding how India views this classification, which I think is the crux of the issue.

Eric, I'd missed your post. The problem here is that if Gibson is found guilty, then every manufacturer and builder is guilty. Consequently, every guitar, violin, electric or acoustic is illegal and cannot be exported. Furthermore, that's the end of ebony and rosewood fingerboards until the US and India work this out. It's a mess.

While I have popped in on this thread to read from time to time I will start by saying that I have not read it in it's entirety ( to much politcal goop). But from what I have read and seen, both here and elsewhere I wonder if this stems more from the fact that Gibson is an importer? I think this may be the real issue. The best way to stop the trafficking of illegal goods that are not of domestic origin is to stop the importation of these items, rather than track them down in small quantity interstate dealings.

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Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

It seems that this citation refers to the US American "Producer Price Index", not the Indian one. If the same definition is not nailed down in Indian regulations it doesn't mean anything because there's no logic behind interpreting Indian laws referring to US American definitions.

Todd, seriously?? Let me remind you that Lacey was passed under a Republican administration and signed by Bush. Henry's made his fair share and then some of enemies. My senate contacts, who last year told me it was a whistleblower within Gibson, and confirmed by excerpts of internal emails suggesting that Gibson knew very well that they were purchasing wood from Madagascar that was illegal and could be obtained on the grey market.

I don't think its right either Filippo, but it is far more effective to have a corporation with the financial backing to launch an aggressive enough challenge to finally thrash this out. So yes we sits and waits, and hopefully, some clarity will be delivered for all parties, especially the FWS because I suspect the greatest problem in all this is it is they, the very party charged with enforcing the Lacey Act, who are the most confused of us all.

Cheers

Kim

My bad, misread the post.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lacey_Act_of_1900
The Lacey act was in effect since 1900 . There were a lot of amendments to this law . CF Martin spends a great deal of money to consultants to be in compliance with the Law . Martin also works with the Government to assure they are within the law
This is not an easy law to be sure that you are in compliance as it relies on the laws of the country of origin . No one here is on the inside of what is going on between the Government and Gibson . The laws are just so vague and interpretation of the rules are so inconsistent .

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

That is absurd. Lets keep the politics out of this

edit: guess I should have hit the refresh button, looks like I'm several pages behind.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

ditto Rick Davis input. Seven pages of opinion/comments from some who appear to never let facts get in the way of a strongly
held opinion. Might be wise for all of us to cool our jets and let the facts emerge.

I will put on my armor in anticipation of more piling on.

I don't see what the big deal is.
So many woods that are legal.
What do I do with my crate of BRW pieces?

I just got the clearance. Here is the Affidavit of the FWS officer in the 2nd raid on Gibson:

http://berkowitzguitars.com/pdf/Gibson%20-%20Affidavit%20in%20Support%20of%20SW.pdf

WOW. That is a lot of legalese.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

David, thanks for posting that.

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http://www.chassonguitars.com

+1 Thanks David.