Official Luthiers Forum!

well, this is the first "heated up" discussion i´ve seen in the OLF, and as in most of this cases, i tend to forget what´s being debated.
I´m not american and maybe i should stay out of this, but i always marvel at the passionate ways you guys talk politics. Around my parts cynicism seems to be the norm and nobody cares for things like debating the role of the state, or even ways of "improving the government". i take it that it´s mainly a result of seeing politics as a world of mandatory compromise (often between powers too big to be curbed by the "power of the vote") - one could call this view pessimistic - versus a positive, "optimistic" view that strives for progressively "better" arrangements of power within the community; an American (in my experience) always knows of a better way to make things when compared to the government. that´s why most political movements worth of mention of the last decades - communitarism, perfectionism, libertarianism - were either created or thrived on US soil - politics is still a issue of debate amongst the communities - and i mean politics (as in "the issues of the city", i.e. civil community), not partisanship. i could have it all wrong, though, wish i usually do.

cheers,
miguel.

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member of the guild of professional dilettantes

of course, there´s nothing simple about politics, specially when you have to bring together 300 million souls under the same law.

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member of the guild of professional dilettantes

Could please, please, please holy Padma step in and answer the following pressing questions:

1. Can Bondo fix the Lacey Act, the economy, and the political situation as a whole?
2. Do they serve Earl Grey, or Darjeeling at the Tea Party?
3. Does the USA still deserve the 'U'?
4. Is this the 'General BS Forum' in the 'Official Lala land Forum', in which case I'm clearly in the wrong place here, or is this the 'Guitar Building Forum' in the 'Official Luthiers Forum', in which case I have no idea what this political nonsense is doing here.

thanks, and many blessings, Christian

Exactly!
Notice I'm not saying anything political?
Can you imagine if there were no traffic laws?

Tell it to the Founding Fathers, bud.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Filippo, please let us know when you get your "visit" from them.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Well, it's been 237+ years since our last tea party and anarchy has yet to rule here, although I'm growing concerned. Time for another...

The simple solution is to have the Lacey Act declared a "rare and threatened" act that is so rare that no one should be allowed to use it and if someone does use it, they should have their files and computers seized...that way we can all get our computers government surplus and continue to build guitars.

Unfortunately, laws like Lacey are neither rare nor threatened.

<post removed for foolish content>

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

In the UK... now cant get some of the stuff I used to get from Stumac with nice abalone... but can direct from the far east... if I choose to. I think Eric said it all really. The sentiment of teh act is GOOD, even if it means restrictions, but its the way its been put together as Fillipo says that is causing the headaches and frustration. Eventually one of two things will happen, Either the Act will mature (amended) and and like any young baby will grow up...in to ... (can we tell?), or one or two of the supply companies will see it as an opportunity.. in offering materials that are fully compliant and with documentation back to the standing tree... a distinct competitive advantage.

Thing is we all all understand the importance of a mature and sensitive attitude to conservation, but in reality how many have a stash of BRW without its full CITIES ? - we may recognise it as old growth/reclaimed and even if trading within a nation, whilst there is demand, there will be illegal imports/logging etc and that is why the laws are so often draconian... by buying stuff whether genuinely old or reclaimed with or without proof, that demand remains and the increasing prices create opportunities for the poachers... the only problem with the legislation is that its badly written and over complex for practical use - the real problem is with those doing the illegal stuff... and as lothe as we may be top admit, those that create the demand for it.

As erudite and cultured a group as I know luthiers to be, we are badly behind the eight-ball on all of this stuff.
The Cities appendix III status of Brazilian rosewood has been in effect for 19 years now and it shouldn't come as a surprise that moving it (or anything made from it) across international borders has become dicey. We all knew it was coming and we ignored it.
Remember, this same treaty applies to Ivory and many other things as well, do we really want to see an ongoing market for Ivory with elephants being slaughtered while their calves starve or rhinos killed for their horns so that someone in Asia (the continent not the organization) can get a hard on? I'm sure we don't.
In some ways it's inconvenient for us as guitar makers..............and we need to get over it.
Lacey is a late comer to the party and deals with imports, and is a big headache for major suppliers and manufacturers but they will simply adapt and even become adept at fulfilling it's requirements and in doing so will perhaps guarantee that we can still obtain and use some of the cherished materials we've become accustomed to.
The US F&W regulations on the export (read MOP) of "wildlife products" also protects animals like black bears from being slaughtered just for their paws or gall bladders and I'm all for preventing that and if it means that I have to adapt a little so be it.
Some prominent retailers and instrument materials dealers have innacurately and deliberately played the fear card declaring that the government will bust down your door and confiscate your old D-28, it's not going to happen unless you imported it illegally. I think they are hoping to get uninformed musicians and guitar afficionados to take up blazing torches and to march on their congressional representatives to repeal these laws. That position is not responsible and just makes everyone's situation worse.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 23268.html

This article from the WSJ makes it seem like asking a fed for help with or clarification of CITES is the last thing one should do. Doing so cost this fellow $17,500, his pianos and his reputation.

Short and to the point:



Let's try to keep the politics to the revisions to the Lacey act please. There are plenty of other forums where we can discuss politics. Let's not drive a wedge in yet another luthier's forum.

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

FYI, the Lacey Act pertains to all wood commerce, trade, or use, be it interstate, intrastate or international. If someone harvests a pine tree illegally off of their own property, it is subject to Lacey Act restrictions.

The wood that was seized at Gibson is Indian Rosewood, Dalbergia latifolia, FSC, Controlled Wood harvested from plantations owned by the government.

Never give up....never surrender!

The fact is, we don't know what it was. According to the news, it was Indian Ebony, not rosewood. So let's wait for more facts to come out before speculating further. For all we know, Gibson is behind all the poaching in Madagascar. I'm by no means suggesting they are, just that we have virtually no facts as of yet.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Don...some of us do know. It was Indian Ebony and Indian Rosewood.

I know Natalie from the NCAL meetings. You might have seen her at Healdsburg, she was kinda running things. In her spare time she is tasked with making sure every shipment from LMI meets government requirements. If she says it's Indian Ebony and IRW, I for one believe that it is.

@ Don, I re-read my post and it sounded condescending which was not my intent...sorry, a little stressed.

Suffice to say I am in the loop on this issue and the items in question (at least this time round) are East Indian Rosewood (Dalbergia latifolia) and East Indian Ebony (Diospyros ebenum). These are Forest Stewardship Council "Controlled Woods" (more information on controlled woods is available, just do a Google search). This is the same stuff that many manufacturers have been using for years, if not decades.

Natalie

@Natalie, I took no offense nor did I draw any conclusions of that kind of tone. I've learned not to draw conclusions easily from what people type here...the hard way. I just saw someone making a statement that didn't seem based on anything factual, except that it contradicted what was in the media. Humble apologies if I offended...
During this sort of thing, stories and wild accusations as well as rumors run rampant, and not recognizing you as the Natalie from LMI, it seemed like a newbie jumping in without a leg to stand on.


Sad that this is all wood that everyone has been using for so long, more sad that suddenly it is all being somehow deemed illegal.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

I just saw the last part of an interview on the news with one of the head guys at Gibson. The 2nd raid reportedly took place after Gibson filed suit in federal court to reclaim the wood that was illegaly confiscated in the first raid. Wish I would have tuned in earlier. Anyone else know or heard anything about this?

McKenna, Thanks for the link to the Gibson response. That pretty much is what I was looking for. Always 2 sides to a story.

Interview with CEO of Gibson on YouTube, here... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96QOaEUn ... _embedded#

Since India is the focus of this latest raid, it makes more sense to me. Since the early-1970's, the Indian government has been restrictive about the export of their rosewood. It must be a product manufactured in India to legally be exported. That means guitar backs and sides, fingerboard blanks, bridge blanks, etc.
As a result, it was nearly impossible to find Indian rosewood rough lumber through the 1970's and 1980's. After that, Indonesian rosewood (D. latifolia grown outside of India) became a much larger part of the market.
BTW, most IRW is plantation grown, whether it is from India or elsewhere. Rosewood trees are planted in tea plantations to provide necessary shade. Without the demand for tea, I doubt that IRW would have survived any better than BR.

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John

This is why people are gathering together- to have a voice and stand up for changes. Freedom from an oppressive system.

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Wisdom is justified by her children

This thread seems to have gone way way off track and has headed into the political arena based on zero information. I think we can safely ignore a lot of the above.

Follow Filippo's link (thank you Filippo!!!) and you will find the following -

"In an affidavit, agent John Rayfield of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service said U.S. Customs agents in June detained a shipment of sawn ebony logs from India.

The paperwork accompanying the shipment identified it fraudulently as Indian ebony fingerboards for guitars and it did not say it was going to Gibson, the affidavit said.

In July, agents observed Indian ebony and rosewood delivered to a storage facility for Gibson, according to the affidavit, which asked permission to seize Gibson's business computers."

So, the allegation is that Gibson imported sawn ebony logs from India, but the paperwork identified it as fingerboards. If correct then that definately is a legal problem for Gibson. It is illegal to export raw Ebony or Rosewood logs from India, and falsified import paperwork is illegal in the US. US F&W will of couse have to prove this, but it is all now making sense. Indian Rosewood and Indian Ebony has NOT been declared illegal! To some of you - back off.