Official Luthiers Forum!

Tangent topic continued...

It's sort of like spending lots of money to get a really light weight bicycle.... when the cheaper issue would be for me to lose 20 or 30 (or more) pounds that I'm carrying around.

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P A U L B U R N E R
Burner Guitars

Semi back on topic...

So what radius do YOU use on your tops?

We are currently using 25', but I see that 28' and 30' are standard dish sizes that are available.

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P A U L B U R N E R
Burner Guitars

I use 30" Never saw a reason to change except you have to sand a little angle into the upper bout of the rimset to match the neck angle. I feather the ends of the lower X and face braces, use fairly traditional Martin type scalloping, and thin the edges of the top in the lower bout. Bass has not been a big problem, actually on dreds I work harder on trying to get good highs all the way up the neck. Dana's articles have been a big help to me.

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

I use a drastic 5' arch on my tops and never had a problem getting good bass response even on single 0's and smaller. I don't feather the lower x-braces either, but tuck them in the linings 1/16" high. Before using a 5' arch I used a 20' radius on my tops and had no issue with bass response either.
I fear the answer is somewhere else, and is not a simple one either.
If you have trouble getting the bass response you want on a 16" guitar, I can think of 5 main things: top too thick, top braces too high, bridgeplate too big, bridge too heavy and back too stiff (too thick, and/or overbraced). Either one of those, or an infinite combination of them in any number.
I do a bit of perimeter sanding sometimes -and I think of it as a remedial solution-, but I know a few other builders who do not and still get tremendous bass response.
OTOH, good bass response compared to what? Other guitars?

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

I use a 28' radius. I used to glue that onto a flat rim. These days I sand a 50' radius into just the UTB area.

So....

Have many of you done work to braces after the guitar is done???

Do you hire really skinny armed people to do this?

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P A U L B U R N E R
Burner Guitars

Wives have been know to "check" computer postings. Living dangerously here?

we definitely do not fit into the "skinny armed people" category

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--Kyle Burner--

In my experience, bass develops over time; as least as much as other components of a guitar's sound. Usually more so.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

I'm pretty beefy so my apprentices got to stick their arms in the soundhole.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

I agree with Howard here. As a matter of fact, I do not take it as good sign if a guitar has lots of bass when it is very young, in my experience that can mean it is built a bit on the light side, and can become somewhat muddy sounding as it ages.

I agree with most of what Laurent is saying, but I'm not sure if a heavier bridge always means less bass. In fact, I have seen improvement in bass response by adding weight to the bridge area. At least is sounds that way; I've read some knowledgeable folks who say that a heavier bridge means the balance between the frequencies may shift so that it sounds like there is more bass, but in fact there is less overall sound output. Maybe so.

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

I believe Somogyi said in his book that it's easy to get bass out of a classical and easy to get treble out of a steel string........and difficult to get good treble out of a classical and difficult to get good bass out of a steel string.

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Formerly known as Adaboy.......

Tony,
I can only assume your wife doesn't read your posts!

You are correct, except I would characterise added mass on the bridge with more focus in the bass registers, not necessarily more bass per se. In other words the bass has to be there to start with IMHO. In any case I was thinking of some "modern" bridge designs I have seen which are pretty massive and certainly limit both volume and bass.
Then it must be true…

What is difficult is to achieve good balance between the registers, a large dynamic range and power. That's where the art is. But that is true of every instrument, even a flute. It is easy to get good bass from a large body guitar, especially a dreadnought. It is so easy that it is most often at the detriment of other qualities in the guitar (i.e. balance, and power in the treble registers, especially high up the neck).

While it is true that the tone of guitars become smoother with time, for lack of a better term, an instrument lacking in bass, for example, will not magically develop a good response in the low registers within a few years. The guitar's character is all there a few days after being strung up for the first time, often just a few hours.

A 16" guitar should put out quite a bit of rumbling. OTOH some players (and builders perhaps?) have unrealistic expectations from an acoustic instrument. IMHO this comes from a few generations of people listening exclusively to amplified and processed recorded acoustic music. But that is another subject…

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

Sorry for going off topic, but Laurent, you said five foot arch? Is that a typo? I've trolled around your site before and would have thought I'd notice something like that.

If you haven't checked out his site, you should. He does beautiful work.

Mike

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Mike Lindstrom

Thanks for commenting on the Somogyi comment Laurent........I was hoping an experienced person would.

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Formerly known as Adaboy.......

What this discussion also demonstrates, is that different builders (and players) have very different goals, and I suppose ideals, when it comes to stuff like this. What Laurent and finds as missing qualities in a dread, can be just the thing others are looking for. An early poster in this thread even said that he'd played several D-28's that were lacking bass, while D-35's in his opinion usually had good bass. To me, D-35's often have huge bass all right, but they also often sound muddy and otherwise uninteresting. But, some folks obviously love them. Different strokes, and all that...

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

Not sure I am experienced, but my comment was ironic Darryl…

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

You could try recording it, burning one, and turning up the bass on your amplifier.

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"Preoccupation with an effect gives it power and enhances the error"
from "Your Owner's Manual" by Burt Hotchkiss.

This worked for me:

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Ok, Ima gonna get smashed for this but here goes.......Why not just put bass strings on the E and A stings and be done with it............lol

Hutch

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"After forty-nine years of violin building, I have decided that the search for a varnish is similar to the fox hunt. The fun is in the hunt."
Jack Batts Maker and Repairer of Fine Violins

Howard, more pics of that, pleeeze!

Looks like the Nakyd Ladie, here is a link to Howard's website with pix of that guitar

http://www.klepperguitars.com/nakydlaydie.html#

Howard...

Dagnabit Howard.............you sure do have a knack for slappin' together some wood and out comes a work of art. You've always inspired me, thanks for sharing.

Hutch

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"After forty-nine years of violin building, I have decided that the search for a varnish is similar to the fox hunt. The fun is in the hunt."
Jack Batts Maker and Repairer of Fine Violins