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 Post subject: Re: Headstock design
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:31 am 
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I sincerely doubt that Martin wants to go after small builders, or even production shops. Not only would this be counter-productive and disastrous in terms of PR, but counter to the company's ethics and attitude so far.
But better to ask somebody at Martin directly, rather than conjecturing wildly (and gratuitously I think).

I suspect it has to do with Asian factories putting out cheap copies of Martin models, with the Martin brand name, stamp and so on. Of course anybody who is familiar with Martins won't get fooled, but a lot of others do. Look on eBay and once in a while somebody posts on the UMGF about this. Maybe this patent/trademark thing is a necessary legal tool for Martin to fight in US courts. But what do I know?

OTOH in Antiquity imitation was the highest form of flattery. Any work started by imitating a "classic", then took off from there. Not doing so was considered the pinnacle of hubris and bad manners. It's a nice recipe for continuity, structure and some form of humility.

I use my own design, strongly inspired among others by CFMartin. However, if asked to build a facsimile of a pre-war OM, say, I would go all the way down to the tiniest details, including the correct period peghead shape. It's a classic…

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 Post subject: Re: Headstock design
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:32 pm 
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I had a colleague do a search on Westlaw. As far as we can tell, C.F. Martin and Dreadnought, Inc. (the owner of the mark in question) has not taken anyone to court (in the time period that the database has records) for trademark infringement.

Now, Martin may have written lots of warning letters, etc. so be aware that the public court records have no bearing on or relect in any way on Martin's policies and behaviors.

It also appears, from the published registration, that the mark covers the headstock, not just the top of the headstock, and excludes the neck.

This is not legal advice, just information that is publicly available.

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 Post subject: Re: Headstock design
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 7:01 am 
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Laurent Brondel wrote:
I sincerely doubt that Martin wants to go after small builders, or even production shops. Not only would this be counter-productive and disastrous in terms of PR, but counter to the company's ethics and attitude so far.


As I have said before, I am only talking based on discussions with the trademark attorneys at work. As I understand it, companies have to show that they have made consistent efforts to protect their trademarked designs from infringement. You can't let anyone use your trademarked designs without a licensing agreement. That means Martin would have to go after everyone who it believes has infringed on its design, not just certain companies.

They could do what Fender has done and enter into license agreements with small shops. There are a number of companies that can make and sell Fender-licensed replacement necks that have the Fender headstock designs. However, those companies are not allowed to sell complete guitars with the same headstock.

Jim


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 Post subject: Re: Headstock design
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 8:27 pm 
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Laurent Brondel wrote:
I sincerely doubt that Martin wants to go after small builders, or even production shops. Not only would this be counter-productive and disastrous in terms of PR, but counter to the company's ethics and attitude so far.
But better to ask somebody at Martin directly, rather than conjecturing wildly (and gratuitously I think).

I suspect it has to do with Asian factories putting out cheap copies of Martin models, with the Martin brand name, stamp and so on. Of course anybody who is familiar with Martins won't get fooled, but a lot of others do. Look on eBay and once in a while somebody posts on the UMGF about this. Maybe this patent/trademark thing is a necessary legal tool for Martin to fight in US courts. But what do I know?

OTOH in Antiquity imitation was the highest form of flattery. Any work started by imitating a "classic", then took off from there. Not doing so was considered the pinnacle of hubris and bad manners. It's a nice recipe for continuity, structure and some form of humility.

I use my own design, strongly inspired among others by CFMartin. However, if asked to build a facsimile of a pre-war OM, say, I would go all the way down to the tiniest details, including the correct period peghead shape. It's a classic…


I agree that they are probably doing this to stop some of the asian knock offs like the Silver Creek T-160 (hog/spruce $199.99 ) and the T-170 (rosewood/spruce $299.99 or less) which are all solid wood guitars that are basically Chinese copy's of the Martin 000-18. The Silver Creek also has a diamond volute and a V neck. Of course they don't sound as good as Martins, but with a decent set- they don't sound too bad. A lot of them are being sold.


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 Post subject: Re: Headstock design
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 6:57 am 
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Ron M. wrote:
I agree that they are probably doing this to stop some of the asian knock offs like the Silver Creek…/… A lot of them are being sold.
This is not what I meant, but rather Chinese relatively crude copies sporting the Martin logo, stamp and being sold as Martins.

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 Post subject: Re: Headstock design
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 7:32 am 
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Laurent Brondel wrote:
Ron M. wrote:
I agree that they are probably doing this to stop some of the asian knock offs like the Silver Creek…/… A lot of them are being sold.
This is not what I meant, but rather Chinese relatively crude copies sporting the Martin logo, stamp and being sold as Martins.


The Martin name and logos have been protected by copyright and trademark for a long time. They didn't need to trademark the headstock shape to go after those people, they are already had the means for that. I believe it has a lot more to do with expanding the market for their Marquis collection guitars, which are advertised as "authentic, golden era, pre-war specs". If they can stop just 1 builder in every state from building 10 instruments a year that's 500 instruments. The average price of their Marquis guitars is about $6000, that's $ 3,000,000 at the retail sales level. Sure looks like motivation to me, same motive as always in this world, money. Remember Martin Guitars is a large corporation and Chris himself is more a businessman than a luthier, At least from my impression.

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 Post subject: Re: Headstock design
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:24 am 
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Laurent Brondel wrote: "This is not what I meant, but rather Chinese relatively crude copies sporting the Martin logo, stamp and being sold as Martins"


I should have made myself clearer. I meant that in addition to the copies with the Martin logo you have companies like Silver Creek making guitars that may not be exact copies, but incorporate Martin designs elements into their guitars.

Ron M.


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 Post subject: Re: Headstock design
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:40 am 
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I'll repeat, I think it has to do with "fake" Martins made in China and sold on parallel markets. If Martin would have wanted to go after small builders and production shops such as Bourgeois, Collings, SCGC et all it would have done so many years ago, and certainly more easily since they're all under US law. Maybe somebody well versed in law can explain if it's even possible.
I doubt they will bring Silver Creek, Blueridge et all to court either since those are not counterfeited, but "interpretations" of Martin and Gibson designs. If it could be done, Gibson would have sued Blueridge right away, for example. Maybe they did…

http://www.martinguitar.com/news/articles.php?id=155

"Since 2005, Martin Guitar has fought to register its mark with the Chinese government to protect its brand and to prevent Chinese individuals from selling counterfeit guitars.

Last month, Senator Casey sent a letter to President Obama detailing the hardships imposed on C.F. Martin & Co. by China’s unfair trade practices and urging him to press the issue with Chinese President Hu Jintao during his visit to Washington. In the letter, Senator Casey urged President Obama to focus his discussions with Hu around intellectual property rights (IPR) protections and currency valuation."

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 Post subject: Re: Headstock design
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:57 am 
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Interesting article Laurent. I think you're right. Thanks for the link.

Ron


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 Post subject: Re: Headstock design
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:04 pm 
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mqbernardo wrote:
jfmckenna wrote:
I always thought it was a boring design any way :mrgreen:
:mrgreen:

:mrgreen: Im brand new here but im a rebel about the martin headstock design! I was aiming at more of a mike doolin style when i was creating mine [:Y:]


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 Post subject: Re: Headstock design
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:26 pm 
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B. Howard wrote:
Laurent Brondel wrote:
Ron M. wrote:
The Martin name and logos have been protected by copyright and trademark for a long time.


Not in all countries. The copies with the Martin name and logo can be legally sold in countries in which Martin did not trademark the name. Not only that, but in China, another company has trademarked the CF Martin name and logo.

Jim


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