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I need a little help...

I built a prototype a short while ago while waiting for some euro spruce to show up. I had a (what I thought was a) crappy piece of Adirondack spruce - wide grain, wild color variation, not great tap tone - hell, I got it for free, it was reasonably stiff though and I went ahead with my best guess for what to do with it... go figure it turned out to be a monster.

Can anyone give me some sweeping generalizations of how Adirondack compares to "Picea abies" Spruce (what I normally use) - I know that is a tall order as the stuff grows all over europe. I get mine from John at "Old World" if that helps at all.. Is Adirondack (generally) much stiffer along the grain? Across the grain? Neither, I have the density measurements but I didn't do a formal deflection measurement...

Can someone give me their thoughts on the differences between those two different spruces in general terms. I am fully aware that there is a massive amount of variation within a species - I'm just looking for some sweeping generalizations here...

Thanks, Peter

Since I also got my euro from John, I feel I'm qualified to compare Red with Euro.
Red is harder than Euro, or denser, as the educated like to say. So imagine what that must mean, slightly more rough-edged, and more resistant to being over-driven by a heavy hand. I like the word "sharp" to describe the tone.
I do not think Red is "quicker" than Euro, only that it comes on with the sharpness that makes it seem quicker.
In working, Red is much more forgiving of rough shop practices.

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Speaking strictly in terms of sweeping generalities, I think of Adirondack as a more dense version of Euro spruce. I love Euro spruce and I use it for most of what I build, but when I come across a player who is really heavy handed, I don't hesitate to use Adirondack spruce.

Interesting about your 'poor quality' Adirondack top that made a "monster" guitar. I once received a shipment of Adirondack spruce tops that were sandwiched between a "reject" top to protect them. That top had red streaks that were so bad they were beautiful and acoustically it was the best top in the stack. It made a killer guitar !! You can see it here: http://www.blanchardguitars.com/guitarp ... g_red.html

Good looking guitar, Mark!

Steve

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From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

I love colorful tops, they're my favorite.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

DAYUM!

Any thoughts regarding cross-grain and long-grain stiffness comparisons to Euro?

So it's generally more dense than Euro? And harder as well? (those are two separate things)

Thanks, Peter

Long rain to cross grain stiffness ratios vary so much within every species that it is hard to make any meaningful comparisons between species.

Individual guitars are made from individual pieces of wood. What the average or typical piece of Euro spruce is like compared to the average piece of Adirondack is irrelevant when there is so much variation within each species and so much overlap of the two. Each top set should be evaluated within the context of the guitar being built. Forget about the species name....... pay attention to the characteristics of the wood in your hands.

M

Peter, what Mark said. But yes, on average red spruce is both denser and harder than Euro, itself (generally) harder and denser than Englemann. There are always outliers: I built a couple of months ago a single 0 with an Italian top that is both harder and stiffer than any red spruce I've seen.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

When folks talk about one spruce being denser than another, have they actually conducted a test to determine density. After all, density is not hard to calculate. Or is it just an intuitive thing. Having said that could someone possibly post a chart comparing densities ( in a general way ) of the different spruces? That would be very helpful. I have only local spruce ( white spruce, I think) and sitka to compare, so that might not be relevant to most builders.

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Under Compensated Nut!

Euro varies a good deal and I suppose all spruce does. I measured from 360 to 470 Kg/m3. Above 440 it is rare, mostly in tight grain sapwood areas. Of course tight grain does not mean high density, I have 40gpi Swiss spruce that is under 400Kg.)

My stiffness tests showed that in most cases at over 420kg/m3 Euro tends to lose stiffness/weight points. Reluctantly, I recently built a guitar with an inefficient, high density soundboard. I thinned it enough so it wasn't too heavy and made slightly stiffer braces, and I have been pleased with the result. Judging from my guitars, in general I think I like the tone of denser spruce tops a little more, regardless of their thickness or bracing.

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Build log

These are density ranges for tops that I have measured.
Units are grams per cubic inch.

Cedar 4.2 - 6.5
redwood 4.3 - 7.5
Engelmann 5.5 - 7.8
Euro 5.7 - 8.0
sitka 6.2 - 8.5
Adirondack 6.8 - 8.9

To convert grams/cubic inch to Kg/m3 divide by 16387.064 (or multiply with Kg/m3 (resulting 5.9 to 7.7 gr/cubic inch for my Euro samples))

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Build log

how do you measure density on guitar tops?

Even sister cuts of woods vary in weight & stiffness.
Evaluate each top for the guitar you plan to use it on.

Bracing,top,back&side thickness,body depth etc....
All play a roll in a guitar.

I prefer Lutz for it's weight ,stiffness & it opens quickly.
Compared to Euro.
I've used Euro the most for the last 30+ years but Lutz is consistant in
sound from guitar to guitar.
I live in the real Adirondacks & the logs really are of poor quality.
What is harvested is super expensive because of the mystique of Adi- red- spruce
There is wood from West Va.to Tennesse being marked as Adirondack.
Martin used it as we all know.
Buy tops from a know cutter & dealer.
They will usually stand behind their woods.

Not a great answer to your question .
Mike

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Mike Collins

It is easiest to measure density of a guitar top set when it is still in rectangular form. I usually just measure one half of a top set. Simply weigh the piece and then divide by the length, then divide by the width, then divide by the thickness. If you weigh in grams, and measure in inches, as I do, you will end up with density expressed in grams/cubic inch. If your wood is not uniform in length width or thickness you will need to use average dimensions in each case.

There is another method I learned from a violin builder who frequently has to measure the density of wedges or other irregular shaped pieces. He "floats" the piece endwise in water and marks the waterline. He then flips the piece end for end and floats it again, marking the waterline again. He then measures the distance from the ends of the piece to the lines and averages those measurements. Now divide the total length by the average waterline measurement and you will end up with the specific gravity. This method works best if you do it really fast on thicker pieces of wood so that water absorption doesn't effect the numbers or mess up the wood !!

M

Ya know dudes...Me been building for 48 years, and the truth is me Frigen tired of this Babbling about this spruce quality verses that spruce quality. Its all a crock of shift.


But here goes. Last time!

Once cut and the bark removed, with the exceptions of sitka spruce...no one but on one...in a lab or in a shop can tell the difference. No one, no how, no way. Period!

All the different types of spruce and no two trees exhibit similar properties.

No two Engelmen or Adirondack or European or sitka or lutz or even tops from 800 year old spruce beams uses in the construction of Genghis Khans yurt and cut from a spruce forest growing in the Gobie dessert exhibit the same properties. Plates cut from the same tree dont even exhibit the same properties.

To be as naive as to think all Adirondack or Sitka or this that or the other is the same is like saying all Americans are war mongers or all English eat fish and chips for breakfast. (actually they are and they do, but thats another myth)

Dudes...is like this ... you like the wood?... It feels good in you hands? ...flexes nice?...than build with it and STFU.

This is the last time me post to a spruce thread. Me don't know whats worst...glue or spruce theads...both have about as much B.S. as Old MacDonalds farm.

HOWEVER...

For you connoisseurs who only want the best of the best of the very best, and stiff like viagra, well then I,me, Padma do happens to have a few of the very last remaining tops cut from them spruce beams that held up the ridge pole to Genghis Khans yurt. 800 years old, 200 lines per inch, Smuggled in from Mongolia via Russia and Japan and only $5,000 / set... (book marked sets add $5,000 Is a good deal..order now while supplies last.

Adirondack vs Engelmen vs European ~ ya right

Wake up dudes.


blessings
Padma

PS: if you find me a little rough in me verbiage...go back a few posts and read what Mike Collins be laying on ya dude. Him saying it like it really is.

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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Thank you for posting here, Mark!

So I guess it just more of this...

We all know that there is great variation within a species but generalities help with selecting tonewoods. If I take the steel string guitars I've made with European spruce and compare them with the guitars I've made with red spruce, the red spruce guitars have more headroom an a more pleasing overtone set than the European spruce guitars, at least to my ear. I was reluctant to use red spruce initially because of the lower availability and cosmetic quality. The tops also came from a variety of different sources so I was concerned that I might not be able to get the consistent results I was getting from the European spruce. However, with all the variations, I have not made guitars that are as consistently exceptional as the red spruce guitars. So I'm a fan. They just have more mojo.

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Ken Franklin
clumsy yet persistent
https://www.kenfranklinukulele.com

Really eh, Generalities like, "you know what they say about red heads, or all them dumb blonds, or that colored people have more mojo" .... if thats what you mean about generalities well then me hearing that you like red spruce. Tell me though...how you know for sure its red and not black or even, heaven forbid, white spruce? Unless of course you logged it yerself. Right!


blessings

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


.

Well I don't know if it's really red spruce or black spruce or white spruce. All I know is that it's been sold to me as red spruce and it doesn't matter where it has come from, Colonial, Old Standard, RCTonewoods, Allied, or LMI, it's all made great sounding steel string guitars, better sounding steel string guitars than I have made with what has been sold to me as sitka, european, or lutz, though those are nice guitars. Seems like the OP had a similar experience with the guitar he made out of what he thought was less than stellar red spruce. What I like about red spruce is its ability to sound good with many different styles of music from fingerstyle to jazz to bluegrass. And the dynamic range is better. Now those are generalization but they've been more true for me consistently than what I've found with other spruces and a lot more consistent than generalizations about blondes or redheads. It doesn't always tap that great and it's harder for me to voice the top accurately but the "red spruce" guitars still seem to come out better. So as long as the tonewood dealers keep selling it I'll keep buying it. I haven't been disappointed yet.

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Ken Franklin
clumsy yet persistent
https://www.kenfranklinukulele.com

Ya, Flippo, and me just rattlin their cages cuz its the first batch of black beer this summer, its a Saturday, and well ya know ya gotta sample the first batch till ye do the face plant in the sawdust.

Yo Franklin, if that red spruce gets your pig clean then use it.

Personally ...me like western red cedar, and although me log me own, me has never had two tops quite the same. Nor have me had two batches of beer quite the same. In fact me never had two of anything quite the same...however there were these twin redheads in Amsterdam...but me don't wanna be boring you with me old man exploits.

Blessings
Padma

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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Just to be provocative (in a nice way) - IMHO (niave for sure), I believe there is a lot of truth in what Padma says (twin redheads in Amsterdam made me cuckle )- Martin used Adi, as it was there, plentiful and local, Old growth Rio most likely originally because it was stiff and looked good.... is the mystique around the pre-war thing really anything to do with the woods used (apart form the inherent beauty of the QS Rio) or more with the quality of craftsmanship and 70 years + of aging beautifully?

I also wonder if the whole concept of 'Mastergrade' is perhaps misleading of whatever species: stiff high grain count, even colour, well QS - used predominantly now and certainly historically by those who actually knew what they were doing - so has some of the quality/experience of the builder (who could probably make a decent guitar out of more varied and 'lesser grades' - been 'transferred' to the wood?

I on the otherhand would probably not see a great deal of difference between species or quality whatever I used as still way too early in the 'journey', but for some reason, the idea of using better quality (read higher priced) tops, helps focus and attention - its probably just my shameful attitude, that if using cheap materials, there is a tendency to rush and not take as much care... but thats my problem and a whole other debate

It shows that there is a lot more to great tonewoods than taptone. I essentially agree with most of what you wrote Ken, especially the different nature of overtones that red spruce seems to produce. I can't say I like it better than picea abies, it is just different. I even like Englemann…
In the kingdom of the blind the one-eyed man is king. Or is it the opposite?
Come on guys, let's be serious…
Not everything is the same and not everything is different.
In spite of outliers one can generalise about species. The variations, IME at least, are not that great and density is only part of the story.

Mark's chart confirms what every builder -who has actually built guitars- knows. I get my red spruce locally here in Maine, from Rob Dmitrieff and David Hill. Not only do I believe them, but red spruce has a specific "sweeter" smell different than other spruces. Besides density there is the fact that red spruce has more surface hardness than other spruces, that alone must have an effect. Lastly, here at least, I do not think you could find a black spruce big enough for guitar tops.

Sorry to sound pedantic, but when building at the highest level and actually reaching a specific tone, every tiny difference counts. It doesn't mean, as many erroneously think, that if you select this or that top and that wonderful B&S set, you're going to get the guitar of your dreams. Like haute cuisine, the ingredients are only part of the story and are meaningless without the chef…

When I worked at Pantheon I was able to evaluate 1000's of guitars sets, and actually follow them being made into guitars. It was a great education. Besides the fact that yes, we all were able to differentiate between spruces by the way the guitars sounded. We knew the models very well of course, and were rarely wrong. As a matter of fact, Dana's essay on the subject is still the best:
http://web.archive.org/web/20050308152013/http://www.bourgeoisguitars.com/tapping_tonewoods.htm

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/