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My mistake.

I agree it does stink but for an oil finish, it builds relatively quick. I used to use Watco but changed to Waterlox for that reason.

Kevin Looker

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I'm not a luthier.
I'm just a guy who builds guitars in his basement.
It's better than playing golf.

Waterlox smell can be overwhelming and I am not too fond of it, I agree.
However it is not an oil finish. It is an oil varnish, and actually a thinned oil varnish whose purpose is to be used as a sealer. I would disagree it builds fast, again it is considerably thinned. If you want a fast build use a "full" oil varnish.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

Laurent,

Would you agree that it builds faster than a product like Watco or some other wipe on/wipe off type product that people commonly refer to as "oil finish"?

Kevin Looker

_________________
I'm not a luthier.
I'm just a guy who builds guitars in his basement.
It's better than playing golf.

It's because it is an oil varnish, and not merely an oil finish!

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

Ok, I understand now. I was getting confused with the marketing of these products. They call them Danish Oil Finsh or Oil Finish when they are actually oil varnish.

The point I was trying to make is that Watco is an oil varnish like Waterlox, but in my experience, builds much slower.

Thanks for clarifying.

Kevin Looker

_________________
I'm not a luthier.
I'm just a guy who builds guitars in his basement.
It's better than playing golf.

Watco and other "Danish Oil" finishes are mixtures of oil-resin varnish and drying oil that has not been linked to a resin. And lots of thinner. They don't build as well as an oil varnish because of the free oil that is not resin linked. A wiping varnish like waterlox is all an oil-resin linked material, plus a lot of thinner.

The only difference between wiping varnish and brushing varnish is the wiping varnish has more thinner. And thinner is cheap.

If one were to speak more strictly than the finishing companies do, an "oil finish" would not be a varnish; it would be a drying oil (like boiled linseed) with thinner.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Watco Danish oil is not an oil varnish, but a wiping varnish. i.e. a mix of oil varnish and usually tung and/or linseed oil(s). I can't imagine it building fast at all, those wiping varnishes are designed to be thin and showing the texture of the wood. Quite the opposite of what we're looking for for a guitar finish.
Confusing, I know. Actually some of what is sold as tung oil are wiping varnishes, and not "pure" oils.
Furthermore, what is called "boiled" linseed oil is not boiled at all, but simply pure linseed oil with driers added to accelerate polymerisation.
EDIT: I see we posted at the same time with Howard…

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

Hey! I've finally found a place for "tung oil" on an acoustic guitar!
Use it on a lap steel fretboard.
That conclusion after much hoopla.

So, Laurent, Howard, and anyone else with experience, what would be your recommended wipe on finish choice, if any?

"By terrible I mean it will never get hard or build to a glossy film"

That isn't true, at least not if one is making a reasonable comparison. Some kind of modern cross linking super varnish is likely harder than most anything, but if one means hard and glossy enough to survive extensive use in a marine environment or on light coloured turned bowls etc... Sure it will.

Basic method of application is you wipe it on, then wipe it off before it gels, or before you get tired waiting. How long it will take to dry will depend on a variety of factors. In a pro environment that can be critical but for hobbyists who may get a few shots a week it can be a non-issue.

If you can't get pure polymerized tung oil to dry you can ad some drier to it. One way it to use the stuff you get at the paint store, which has the disadvantage of your ending up knowing the nasty stuff you may have put in there. Or you can add a modest amount of something like gloss or semi-gloss valspar oil varnish, which will man up your finish a little and comes with driers of it's own.

If you need to fill you can sand the tung oil with wet dry during the first coat, and mud things up. You can let the mud dry in place, and then cut it back, which is pretty miserable on a curved piece, or you try and wipe it way without taking it out of the pores.

Just repeat the wipe on and wipe off steps until you get the degree of
build you want. You can then buff it for a shinny finish. The "Just" can be an extensive process, but then there isn't much in clean-up or nastiness in doing the steps, so it really isn't onerous. 6 weeks can be about typical for daily applications, but you get something you can work with in a few applications.

I would use watco natural for a reasonable building finish that is still thin. I find it equivalent to the generally preferred trueoil. But I have used the P Tung oil and it works also, and you know what you are getting. Watco is said to be food safe once it has dried some weeks, I like that.

I would use tung stuff on a neck, or maybe a walnut body. Otherwise I am not a huge fan on guitars, at least not when trying to meet other's needs. It isn't always understood, but one reason gloss doesn't feel good is because it is so smooth and shinny. If you took a high gloss neck and cut it back with 320, it would feel better, but the problem is it wouldn't look great. This is a critical thing on handles of paddles. I use tung on the upper grip since it will be mostly dry. I use gloss varnish cut back to 320 on the shaft, because it will get wet, and the 320 is silky in the hand. How you do that without making a neck look bad, I am not sure. A less gloss varnish might work. One can also cut it back, then wax it, that will bring up the gloss without loosing the feel, but it may not be enough for the showroom. Certainly an option when you are trying to tune up your own guitar.

http://riflestocks.tripod.com/50cal4.html#FINISHED

Here is an interesting discussion of gun stock oil, which is what truoil at the Big Mac level aspires to be. Note the Venice turps used as a drier. Much of the problems people have with oils will go away if you just use enough drier.

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubb ... #Post96473

You have substituted polymerized tung oil for pure tung oil. Yes, I know the former could be called "pure polymerized tung oil." But it's not what gets labeled "pure tung oil." Let's talk about the same thing if we are going to have a sensible disagreement.

Marine finishes work because they are not very hard, so if hard enough for marine use is a standard for hardness, we actually agree.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Minwax tung oil from home depot works great on necks but I wouldn't use it for bodies. I think it has some polyurethane in it. You can build it it up in layers too. Pure tung oil doesn't seem like it would be ideal.

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"Preoccupation with an effect gives it power and enhances the error"
from "Your Owner's Manual" by Burt Hotchkiss.

I came to this thread to learn everything that might be said. Being here and reaping the benefits of all the expertise and experience that are so freely and generously offered is a privilege. Because I am a noob, I sometimes ask a question which is responded to with a wide variety if opinions...I have never failed to take away useful information. Thank you OLFERs.

I might pipe in here, because I am trying a wipe on finish called Arm R Seal on an electric slab git.
I know, not a tung oil, but a polyurethane.
I am not impressed with the build up.
I'll stick with spraying varnish for now.
I do think it will be fine looking,
just too much work. Wipe on, wait, wipe on, wait.......................................................................................
I'll let you know if it ever gets done.
Alan