Official Luthiers Forum!

Well I took the plunge yesterday and ordered a LN 62 and a LN 60 1/2 LA adjustable mouth block plane. Figure you have to start somewhere and gain experience before determining what you really like. I figure the 62 with the different blades would be the best all round starting point.

Just curious, with planes, is there any rhyme or reason to the numbering?

The main reason for the LN numbering system is that they are copying the old Stanley planes.. The LN 62 is a copy of the Stanley #62 for example, the 60-1/2 is a copy of the Stanley #60 or #60-1/2.. As far as the Stanley numbering system, the Bench planes are pretty straightforward... #1 is the smallest. #8 is the largest (or in the Bedrock series #602 -> #608 - there is no #1 size Bedrock plane unless you buy a new plane from Patrick Leech). As far as the block planes made by Stanley, I have no idea why they were numbered the way they were. Maybe they were numbered in the sequence that they were introduced to the public (chronologically) That's my best guess.. but I'm probably 100% wrong...

As a side note: a lot of talk has been payed to the LN and Lee Valley Planes. I have a LN Low Angle Jointer and a #102 block plane and they're great, but all my other planes are old Stanleys and they are equally great. For the minimal amount of time required to make them work correctly. They really are a great option. After a little cleaning, flattening and sharpening you have a nice plane that works really well and has that super-cool old tool mojo. It really just doesn't take that much time to do this at all... you would be surprised. For a couple of my planes I have put A2 LN blades in them - if the original blade was thrashed - or in the case of my smoother, I wanted a thicker blade and thicker chipbreaker, and you have something that really does rival a LN plane (not all the stanley models qualify, but a lot of them do). Another thing you get by researching, buying an old tool and fixing it up is the fact that you will learn a lot about how it functions and what makes a good tool a good tool.

There is also the nifty sense of history with the old tools.. Something that a number of people (self included) are drawn too. For Planes, chisels, vises and whatever. Don't discount the stuff made a 100 years ago. In some cases there are no modern high quality equivalents and a lot of the old stuff were really capable tools...

For a really good source for Stanley plane numbering, information and history try Patrick's Blood and Gore at: http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan0a.html

That's just one good source for Stanley planes.. there are a lot of other good/great early planes out there too, as well as all other types of tools. It's an interesting world to explore and in my opinion is too quickly discounted as a very good option to buying a new very expensive tool. Not that some of the new stuff isn't great, but there are other options out there..

Just my $.02

Regards, Peter Z

"Thank you guys for the information.

So, bottom line, it is not a great idea to use a block plane for thicknessing top and back, because it is just too small for the job.
Is that correct?

I was thinking about getting a small L-N block plane for ~ 100 dollars to do this job, but I guess it is not a good idea...

Maybe I should get the Woodriver #5 jack plane for
/--
Right, planing efficiency goes up to the extent that:

The workpiece is secured to an appropriate, non-moving surface;
You can get both hands on the plane for powerful weight transfer;
The plane is designed to do the job intended.

That said I was watching a 10 DVD set on guitar making, and the guy pretty much did everything with a block plane. You can't get too powerful with that. But with a radiused blade and a sufficiently wide mouth opening, you could make relatively short work of thicknessing material if you had to.

My recommendation would be to get an (old) Stanley #4-1/2 on eBay for about $50 and a Lie Nielsen A2 Replacement blade for $45 (and a sheet or two of emery cloth to sand the bottom of the plane flat using a any flat machine tool surface - like the top of a table saw, to put the emery cloth on) for about $125 you would have a super nice tool. Much nicer in my opinion than any of the new lower priced planes.. and it would be perfect (in my opinion) for thicknessing/smoothing plates. If you want something a little longer or shorter just get the Stanley #4 or #5 and a LN blade. It might even be a couple bucks cheaper...

This of course is just one person's opinion.

Regards, Peter Z

When you guys say "OLD", how old is that? What should one look for?

Also, get on Patrick's mailing list, and you'll get a list of planes, chisels, and miscellaneous hand and measuring/marking tools every month that are available for purchase. Most are pretty close to ready to use, some need some rust clean-up, but he tells you the status, and has pictures. The run of the mill models, vs the rare ones, are not so expensive.

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

When looking for old planes, you'll find the better deals at garage sales & flea markets. Ebay will always fetch a premium.

As opposed to a collector, you're looking for a good "user".

Study up and happy hunting.

Kevin Looker

_________________
I'm not a luthier.
I'm just a guy who builds guitars in his basement.
It's better than playing golf.

After I have read all of your advice, I think I will settle with a LV LA jack plane, since I can use it for thicknessing and shooting...
I was reading all the information regarding to the different blade angles for different kind of wood.

Now, I run into another issue. In order to hone certain angles to the blade, lt looks like that I also need to get a honing guide with the capability to set angles.
Like the veritas MK II hoing system. That is not cheap.

Is MK II the way to go? or there is a cheaper way?

Thank you so much.

I've had the original Veritas jig (Mark I ?) for a long time and it still works fine. It's not completely idiot proof but it's a lot easier than doing it freehand. Besides the sharpening jig, you'll also need to buy sharpening stones, more $$$.

There's no way around it but it's a one time investment.

Remember, you only cry once when you buy quality.

Kevin Looker

_________________
I'm not a luthier.
I'm just a guy who builds guitars in his basement.
It's better than playing golf.

The Veritas jigs are great, but for speed, ease of use, and low cost it is hard to beat a simple honing jig like the one seen in this link: http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/200311 ... Guide.aspx. It's $10, and you can find them a good number of places. Works very well with plane blades, but it's not especially great with thicker chisels unless you take some time to modify the design.

You can skimp on a honing guide, but don't skimp on stones. You cannot underestimate the usefulness of a truly sharp tool. Before I started this addiction, I thought I knew what sharp meant, but the kind of precision needed for building a great guitar required me to reevaluate my definition of sharp. Growing up, I have memories of grabbing my grandpa's old No. 5 and trying to plane a board just because, and thinking "why in the world would anyone want to use one of these." Grandpa was great at a lot of things, but sharpening apparently wasn't one of them. I can't say I have mastered the art of sharpening (or made a great guitar yet for that matter), but I am a heck of a lot better at it than I used to. Now, I love planes, any plane, and chisels and think how could any man live without them.

Aaron

_________________
Aaron Craig

I have the Veritas Mark II jig and I like it allot. There certainly are cheaper alternatives out there but the Veritas jig is well thought out and it does a good job of helping you set the blades square to the sharpening media.. It is also very easy to set the bevel angle on the blade for different size blades and to put a micro-bevel on the blade. I would buy it again... I also agree with what Aaron said above about the sharpening stones. Get something good. Don't skimp. I have water stones and a rough diamond plate and they work really well together (you can flatten the water stones with the diamond plate - which cleans the crud off the diamond plate) Sharp tools are safer than semi-sharp or dull tools...

As far as "old" Stanleys go, I have had great luck on eBay finding stuff from the "Sweetheart" era or older - there are patent dates on the planes that correlate to the different era's. The older planes are usually a little cheaper as people seem to be drawn to the "Sweetheart" era planes... name recognition or whatever.. The Sweetheart era or older Stanley's are really nice tools, have nicer shaped Brazilian rosewood handles, nice castings and if the blades are salvageable - the steel seems to hold an edge well. These planes also hold their value very well. In fact, I bet I could sell all the old planes I have bought for a lot more than I have into them. I did have to apply some elbow grease, but it was fun and rewarding fixing them up...

For me, buying planes on eBay has been cheap and I have had good luck. Most people want something shiny and new-looking and the grungy planes splattered with paint get passed by and sell for peanuts. I bought my Stanley Bedrock #604 for dirt cheap. It looked like hell (see pic below) but after a little work to clean up the plane, flatten the bottom and put a final edge on the LN blade I bought for it, it was ready to go and works incredibly well. Things you need to ask the seller is: if the plane has any cracks or repairs on it (if it does, then pass on it) and for the larger planes, ask the seller to put a straight edge on the bottom of the plane. Severely non-flat planes can take a long time to flatten. Also ask if the front handle or rear tote has any cracks in them (not that big a deal - it's just rosewood - unless it has been previously "fixed" then it can be difficult to undo the repairs and fix it correctly). Ask if there are any chips or cracks around the mouth.. and if the plane is pitted from rusting. Bottom line: There are enough good planes out there that you don't need to buy anything that has any real problems. Another thing: Stanley "Jappaned" the inside of their planes with a black coating. You will see people state that say something like "90% jappaning remains.." a lot of people care how much of the coating is on there but it makes no difference whatsoever to the usefulness of the plane. Find a nice plane that is missing some or a lot of it's Jappaning as it's only fault and you can get a really nice plane for cheap.

You can see the pictures below of the Stanley Bedrock #604 when I received (bought on eBay) it and after a little elbow grease and a replacement Lie Nielsen blade and chipbreaker (No other parts were replaced) It's a really nice plane now.

Regards, Peter Z

If you're going to use the plane with a shooting board, you also need the sides (or one of the sides) square to the sole.

If it's not, you're going to have a lot of fun DAMHIKT

Kevin Looker

_________________
I'm not a luthier.
I'm just a guy who builds guitars in his basement.
It's better than playing golf.

If you are shooting book matched backs and tops, it shouldn't matter if the side is square or not - just flat. If there is an angle, it will equal out when you open the book.

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Yeah... I've been through the "Rehab Old Rust" movie.....

Quick figures to think about....
Buy the plane - $30.00
New iron and chip breaker - $75.00
New handle and tote - $30.00
Total so far..... $135.00

Sandpaper and supplies to flatten the sole - $30.00

Total so far.... $165.00

and.. you haven't bought any sharpening equipment at all.....

Now.. Figure 2 hours per night for 2-weeks getting the thing sorted out.....

Crazy as it sounds - you really are better off buying one of the new Wood River bench planes and going with it.... as you don't have to worry about sorting it out... Touch up the iron and off you go to work....

Thanks

John

Thank you guys for all the inputs.

So, I have watched Todd's video about sharpening with diamond stone/norton water ston system a few times.
The video is so inspiring..
I did learn that he used the same $10 honing guide as well.
It works great.
The question I have is that how do you honing the blade to a specific angle with that $10 guide?
With Veritas MK II, it can be done. But, with other kind of guide, how do people do it?

Thank you all..

"Now.. Figure 2 hours per night for 2-weeks getting the thing sorted out....."

The Stanley Bedrock #604 shown in my previous post took an hour or two to get from Junky state to shiny setup state. That's it. The handles and totes did not need replacing the the "supplies" needed to spruce the thing up was probably less than $15. I did buy a Lie Nielsen Blade and Chipbreaker so that saved me some time but now I have a really nice tool and it wasn't an ordeal at all.. The plane is nice enough that I woudn't trade it for anything (well, maybe a Norris smoother...)

Look at the tool arsenals of longtime wood workers. They usually have a Lie Nilesen plane or two but they also usually have a bunch of old Stanleys as well.

The old tools in a lot of cases are really good tools..

Peter Z

Dear all,
I am just wondering one thing...
I understand that a #4 smoother can do precision thicknessing.
Does a #5-1/4 Junior Jack plane (12") do a good job as well?
I am guessing that if the blades are sharp, there is no noticeable difference, right?