Official Luthiers Forum!

Hi Guys,
I've seen Ebony bridge pins on ebay, they look nice and are reasonably priced.
My question,
Will Ebony transmit string vibrations like bone ??
Or should I stick with Bone ??

Gregg

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Gregg

Ebony pins are used on a large number of production and custom guitars. Most people would be very hard pressed to tell any difference in sound between them and bone IMO.

Thanks Todd,
I'll check it out.

Gregg

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Gregg

I actually prefer ebony pins over other materials. Ebony, being wood, gives ever so little, and locks the ball end of the string tightly. I doubt it makes a big difference, but I like little details like that. I also use the 3 degree pins, like the old Martins, unslotted. Paired with a rosewood bridge, that's my preferred setup.

I've read several discussions on bridge pin theory etc. but no reading will convince you as quickly as popping a set in and seeing for yourself. I've used bone, buffalo horn, ebony and fossilized walrus jawbone. Currently I use FWJ but all of those options were superior to bone/tusq in my experience. My second choice would be bone and then buffalo horn, but that's just me. Some people choose ebony for the color scheme, but if it was me I'd find some dark buffalo horn. It's more rugged, less apt to crack and in the same general vicinity pricewise.

What Todd said.
BTW the SM pins are the most accurately made I know of. They're essentially interchangeable and incredibly consistent. All other pins (including the Gurian made ones) require to be fitted individually, and marked, and some Asian made pins are absolutely useless (too much variation, slot too deep etc.).
On the subject of pins, I think unslotted pins are more desirable, less destructive and easier to fit accurately.
There are a lot of silly discussions about bridge pin material out there, personally I believe weight may have an impact but the difference must be substantial. Otherwise it is mostly psychotonal…
It is sometimes good practice to shorten pins that are oversize, especially with heavier materials like bone.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

I agree that the fit is the most important. I also like to see the string making some contact with the pin as well as the pin making contact with the bridge, top and plate.



But I will disagree with this. The Gurians seem to be made with a +/-.003 tolerance, which on a 3 degree taper is a lot. Some builders go through a large bag of pins and have gauges made to sort by size. I've been making pins for the guys in SC and for a couple of dealers for the last 7 years. All my pins are custom made for the builder and are interchangeable whether they are made of ebony, pernambuco, rosewood, horn, ivory or fossilized bone. The only time they are not is when i put more string slot relief into the pins for the bass strings. ( OK that's just for 1 builder, I actually prefer unslotted). Laurent, if you are talking about mass produced pins made in Asia I would agree with you, but there are others out there, myself and Burton included, who do make pins to a higher tolerance. They cost more than what you buy in Asia, but.....YGWYPF

Tim

Tim, I think you misread my post: I find the Gurian pins to have too much variation. I was, of course, writing about mass produced pins, and there the SM ones are the best, period.
I know Burton's work and can't recomend him enough, but again I was talking about mass produced stuff.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

Now I'm confused.....
I checked SM and there bone pins are twice the price of LMI,
Why ??

Gregg

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Gregg

I mispoke earlier when I said all those options were superior to bone/tusq. I meant plastic/tusq.

I have always noticed some difference when changing out plastic pins on my factory guitars, especially in the harmonics. The difference between the other options (ebony, bone, buffalo horn, FWJB, FWI) are far more noticeable when changing the saddle material than anything else, but I do think there is some creedence to the weight/density side of the discussion since the pins do play a direct role in transferring energy from the strings to the bridge/soundboard and each material has its own unique properties. Of course a good fit is also very important.

How MUCH of a difference the material plays is difficult, if not impossible to quantify, other than what I have already said (not as much affect as the saddle material). But then again, I just feel better knowing that there is no plastic on my guitars. Just my $0.02

This is where most of the confusion occurs. The pins secure the string ball in the bridge, but the point of contact with the soundboard that matters is on the saddle/bridge, not with the pins which are behind the saddle.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

I agree that the saddle is much more important, but I also believe that the pin material plays some function as well. Just my opinion, and here is the justifacation behind that belief:

Isn't the saddle essentially just a lever which is held in place by the machine heads and the bridge pins (crossing the nut along the way)? It seems that the rigidity of the material would play some role in the effectiveness of that lever, say for example versus using cork bridge pins. Would cork give a better sound due to a tighter fit? Or would the fact that the string is not pressed into place by a more rigid material negate it?

Obviosly a hypothetical question, but I think it's an interesting one none the less.

AFAI can see the primary issue is of mass for the pins. The saddle has some amount of transmission, but the pins just keep the ball ends from coming out of the hole. In a properly fit slotted bridge once it is up to pitch you should be able to pull all the pins without putting out an eye. Little or no acoustic transmission of sound, I would think, is passing through the pins in a meaningful way.

So to my way of thinking, all the changing of pins is primarily a changing of the mass of the bridge issue. It might be interesting to do a test by weighing a set of bone (of what ever type) and a set of ebony pins.Maybe throw in a set of the brass ones just for the hay of it. Then string to pitch and swap them back and forth. This would be a test for someone like Fingerstyle to do who has hearing and perception good enough to notice this type of difference. It is totally lost on me.

Alan D.