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Hello all!

I'm buying a good amount of tools for lutherie with my upcoming tax return. One of these items will be a plane for jointing backs and tops. I was curious as to whether or not I should go for a low-angle jack plane (Veritas), of the standard-angle 5 1/4 (Veritas). Any advantages/disadvantages of either when it comes to jointing in the context of lutherie?

Thanks in advance,

Josh

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Finally escaped The Peoples' Republik of Massachusetts; I can smell the freedom in the air!

Probably no real difference when it comes to joining 1/8" plates, as long as either are sharp. What is an advantage is the versatility of the low angle planes, you can easily switch out different blades for different purposes. Planes are good for a lot more than just jointing. I would get a LA Jack and a 50 degree iron for planing hard or figured woods, maybe a notched blade for thicknessing.

Edward,

That's what I was thinking as far as no real difference with such thin wood. Didn't consider the other options with the LA. Should I assume that the same holds true for a block plane, as well?

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Finally escaped The Peoples' Republik of Massachusetts; I can smell the freedom in the air!

Get the low angle jack with the hot dog handle from LIe Nielsen. It is their best selling plane and you can use it for many other things other than just joining tops and backs. Great deal too.

Robbie,

That looks tasty! Would the 90 degree blade give me the same result as swapping out the iron?

You just want me to spend more money, I see how it is.... LOL

BTW, are you sure you don't have an extra one of those floating around? I seem to remember a picture or two with you in front of some LN crates bigger than my car......

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Finally escaped The Peoples' Republik of Massachusetts; I can smell the freedom in the air!

Here is an article that gives a review of the Lie Nielsen low angle jack plane. It talks about the blade angle that you mention. http://www.lie-nielsen.com/pdf/LN62.pdf

I had never thought about using the plane as a scraper but apparently it can be done. I use this plane for thicknessing tops and on my shooting board for joining tops and backs. I have other Lie Nielsen planes but this one gets the most use. You will not be disappointed with this plane.
Yes, I remember that pic of me in front of the Lie Nielsen shipping crates at RRCC. It is a good thing they come by the school with those crates at least once a year so I can get my Lie Nielsen fix. If you are evert in the Denver area during one of these events it is worth stopping by and testing driving all their tools. You also get a 10% discount. Yikes!!

Robbie,

Thanks for that link; good info. I'd love to make it back to Denver. I was born there and lived there while in the 4th grade. My wife likes road trips.... Hmmmmmmmm...

Todd,

Thanks for the info; I was hoping you would chime in here. I was leaning toward the Veritas for jointing for the reasons you stated. I'm curious about LN over Veritas for the LA block and 4 1/2 smooth. I'm definitely looking for a great block plane to go along with the LA jack, but will be waiting on the smoothing plane, as money definitely is an issue and I have access to a nice 22-44 drum sander for now.

In regards to guitar-building, are there any other planes (aside from the 3 above) that would see fairly regular use? I was looking at some of the finger planes for braces after the initial shape is chiseled. Any thoughts on going in that direction (as well as on a dedicated brace-carving chisel)?

Thanks again,

Josh

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Finally escaped The Peoples' Republik of Massachusetts; I can smell the freedom in the air!

I have a Stanley #62 which is a low angle jack plane and a Lie Nielsen Low angle Jointer. I prefer the Low angle planes for the reason people have noted: You can change the angle of the cutting edge quite easily (have multiple blades) for different uses. I also like the balance of the large block planes compared to their bench plane equivalents, although some would probably say the opposite. That said, few would find a bench plane more comfortable for shooting compared to a large block plane. The frog gets in the way of where your hands want to be...

Peter Z

I'm also in the market for a plane. I was originally thinking of buying a #4 smoothing plane, as that is what is recommended in Cumpliano's book. But, maybe the jack is a better idea?

how would the jack plane fair at thickness tops?

I guess having a combo is best but I don't feel like splashing out on 2 planes all at once.

my intended uses are; thicknessing tops; jointing tops/backs

Cheers,

Stefan

I highly recommend the woodriver planes that woodcraft sells. They sell a #3, 4, 5, and 6 planes, as well as both low angle and standard angle block planes. I got the #4 and the #6 for shooting and jointing. They both came dead flat with sharp blades and properly set up. I have a lie-nielsen low angle block plane, and I love lie-nielsen stuff, and if you don't mind spending the extra money, it's well worth it, but it's just something to think about that you can buy both a smoother and a #6 fore plane for less than the cost of just a #5 lie nielsen. They have A2 blades and the same bedrock design. Another thing is that it's nice to have a dedicated jointing plane, that is always sharp, and the woodriver #6 is good for that. You really don't use it that often, like you might with a smoothing plane, so why not just have something that you set aside for shooting only. I also think that having a #4 is almost a necessity to me. They are great and versitile planes that you can use for so many tasks. I personally don't like the #5 as much, but as Todd Said, they can be used in a varity of ways.

Jonas

http://www.woodcraft.com/Family/2021170/WoodRiver-V3-Bench-Hand-Planes.aspx

If I could have only one plane to sart off with, I would definitely recommend a jack plane of some sort, not a smoothing plane.

My main go-to (large) planes are my Stanley #62 Low Angle Jack Plane (just like the Lie Nielsen #62) and my #7-1/2 Low Angle Jointer. I used to use the #62 for jointing top and back plates, flattening neck stock and truing "stuff" up which it did a fine job of. I now use the #7-1/2 (jointer) for the majority of those tasks. The Jointer just makes things idiot proof, which is really an advantage for me. I still use my Low angle jack plane all the time - to get things in the ball-park - which I believe was the original intended propose of a Jack plane. I almost never use my #4 Smoother. I can't even remember the last time I used it for guitar related stuff. Great plane to have but not for guitar making (not for me at least).

Other than the handle that looks like a child made it (that wasn't paying attention or was overcome by paint fumes), the Veritas Low-Angle Jack Plane looks like a great plane for the money. If it were my money though, I would get the Lie Nielsen equivalent (#62 Low Angle Jack). It's only $26 more. It lacks some of the features of the Veritas plane, but that doesn't in any way make it less of a tool... And the handle is comfy right out of the box. nicely balanced as well. There's a reason the plane Lie Nielsen patterned it after is a cult item..

Just my $.02

Regards, Peter Z

Great reply, Filippo, and thanks to all who have responded so far!

I think I will be leaning towards the Veritas for the LA jack and the LN 4 1/2 HAF smoothing plane for thicknessing the plates and sides. Not sure about block planes just yet. I'd like to get them in my hands and compare. Too large is awkward, but too small can be tiring. Not that worried about the handle on the Veritas LA jack just yet; I may like it just fine for shooting joints.

Stephen Boone's mini planes are on my list and I think that will cover me for planes; I shouldn't ever have to buy another one.

Gonna move onto my chisel list. Time to go back over that recent chisel thread.....

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Finally escaped The Peoples' Republik of Massachusetts; I can smell the freedom in the air!

The thing about shooting is that for the most part, the board ensures the surface transfered to the workpiece, so the length of the plane is not all that important. The Stanley 51, for whatever it may have been intended for, was 15 inches long. So that says jack, but it really doesn't mater with the size and resistance in lutherie stock.

I think I own most planes discussed here, or at least one per category. That said, for work, as opposed to investigative/curiosity purposes, I almost always come back to wooden planes. Top choice, for most things, metal is kinda what happened when the craft died. Wood is way more functional*, and it costs a ten spot to make one, or whatever your blade costs if you farm that out.

I do like metal block planes, though. I prefer bronze, and I prefer what LN produces. LV is very serviceable and probably sees more use throughout a year, but LN, makes a nicer plane. Of course LV just upped it with their fancy block planes, but they aren't to my taste.

* Not to start a war, but I don't want to irk people either by just throwing around opinions, and that's all this is. I've been at this 30 years, and one could say 40 if the time spent with dad counts. Wood:

Not cold to the touch which is huge this time of year, and even in the basement in the summer;

No rust;

Humdity problems have workarounds, so they don't bother me;

Shape, purpose, whatever is totally customizable. Think how some people spend a few bucks on fancy metal router tables, then think how many purpose built, normally wooden jigs we use;

Accuracy is easily maintained with normal shop tools;

Normally blades are better quality, and this will certainly be true if one has a similar budget;

Less friction in the cut;

Many orders of magnitude better blade setting speed. No backlash to contend with. Never rotates into a cut.

Lighter, with no compromise in performance;

I also like to project the idea I like wood. I make guitars out of wood, not metal or carbon fiber moldings etc... If I don't believe in wood for the tools I use, why should a client believe in the wooden tools I create.

As I said, all very personal stuff. Some of my preferences could be satisfied with other materials, the options or features just aren't there. Nobody makes a lutherie specific jointer, but I built one in Andaman padouk 13 years ago...

This!!

I have to respectfully disagree with Tom. It should be made clear that the shooting board holds the plane square to the wood. The plane, not the jig, is responsible for forming the straight surface on the wood edge.

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"Building guitars looks hard, but it's actually much harder than it looks." Tom Buck

No problem, Todd. Thanks for the clarification.

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"Building guitars looks hard, but it's actually much harder than it looks." Tom Buck

Hi! Everyone,
I am very new in making instrument and I hope it is ok to ask a very biginner's question.

Can I use a block plane to do thicknessing the soundboard?
I understand that smoothing plane is more appropriate, but can a small block plane (~5") do the work too?

I have also tried to search for information about the difference between block plane and bench plane.
Maybe I didn't look hard enough, but I couldn't really find too much information that help me understand completely.
Would you please point me to the right direction?

Thank you all so much.

Anyone use a Primus plane? Always wanted to have one of those.

I am constantly pleased with the use of my three japanese pull planes along with an assortment of block planes. One that works amazingly is a wooden skew rabbet from japan. Highly recommend it. I find having several options to be important because you never really know which one will be best. Most of mine are oldies that I restore anyways.

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"Preoccupation with an effect gives it power and enhances the error"
from "Your Owner's Manual" by Burt Hotchkiss.

Ditto. I struggled with a top set last weekend. I was using a #5 and there would always be a gap at the far end or the middle. I changed to a #6 & things quickly improved. It still required some technique but it seemed much easier.


I have a Primus smoother. It's a nice plane. The adjuster is very nice because of it's zero backlash design. The one trade off is that it's a PITA to install & remove the blade for sharpening but it came with an A2 blade which holds an edge longer. The only other issue is the lightness of a wood bodied plane. Most of the time I like the heft & increased inertia of an iron plane.

Kevin Looker

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I'm not a luthier.
I'm just a guy who builds guitars in his basement.
It's better than playing golf.

If one had the dough does this look like a good set to get started with hand tools in lutherie? Todd, I think the three planes in this set are the ones you mentioned in your first post...

http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=1-jts

Even though we have 2 thickness sanders . I use a homemade 18 in try plane with an indian rosewood sole and walnut body . The mouth is very tight 1/32 in it does a great job on flattening edges on back and top plates the blade is a Primus or ece have been using this method in a record vice for 32 years. Shooting boards never worked for me. For thicknessing I have a yard sale corsair smoothing plane for taking heavy cuts, and a stanley #5 old jack plane with hock blade does the flattening part on the plates. I also own a LN scrub plane for larger hogging cuts . For final smoothing I use a LN low angle smoother with adjustable mouth , which leaves a great finish. I also have 2 large 24 in primus planes for edege planing one with 25 deg bevel for softwood and a 32 deg one for hdwds. They work extremely well.

Life is short.

Get a Holtey
http://www.holteyplanes.com/infill-planes-A1.html

Kevin Looker

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I'm not a luthier.
I'm just a guy who builds guitars in his basement.
It's better than playing golf.

Todd's advice is solid. I started with a standard angle block plane (a $40 Stanley) because that's what I could find locally at the time, and a smoothing plane and standard jack plane (both old Stanley planes) off Craigslist for $20. A few bucks spent on sandpaper and some serious elbow grease was all it took to tune them up well. Tooling up can be expensive, so if money is short you can always find older planes that you can tune to work very well. If you have the dough and you want perfection out of the box, the LN planes can't be beat (I am sure the Veritas planes are well built too, but I've just never had a chance to use one).

Regarding joining top and backs, for my first two and the back set of # 3, I used my standard jack on a shooting board. I had mixed results. On one set I would get a tight joint relatively quickly, on others - not so much. One particular set, I spent hours chasing the gap around before I finally got a light free joint. A while back I bought an old Stanley Sweetheart No. 7 off ebay for under $100 and tuned it up. With that plane, joining backs and sides seems foolproof. I have joined 2 backs and 2 tops with it so far (I really didn't need to join one of the back sets yet, but I was so impressed by my results on the other sets I just couldn't help myself - definitely the first time I can say I enjoined the process of joining a back set). I doubt I will use the No. 7 for anything other than jointing backs and tops or truing up side sets, and you can certainly get by without such a massive plane (I'm sure Todd and other great builders here could flawlessly join a top or back with a block plane if they wished), but for $100 I will gladly hold on to it indefinitely for just those tasks.

Good luck.

Aaron

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Aaron Craig

Thank you guys for the information.

So, bottom line, it is not a great idea to use a block plane for thicknessing top and back, because it is just too small for the job.
Is that correct?

I was thinking about getting a small L-N block plane for ~ 100 dollars to do this job, but I guess it is not a good idea...

Maybe I should get the woodriver #5 jack plane for thicknessing.

I too am looking to get a plane or too for guitar making. I think I have settled on the Lie Nielsen 60-1/2 LA adjustable Mouth Block Plane, but want to get one for Plate joining as well. The more I read posts and do searches, I get more confused. I hear LN 62, No. 5-1/2 Bench, No. 4-1/2 smoothing Plane..... Which plane would do a great job of joining for someone who hasn't really used a plane before, but also could do other tasks?

Thanks,
Scott

That is correct, its not the right tool for that job.


I have no experience with the plane you mention, but all regular bench plane sizes can be used for thicknessing, and different people prefer different sizes. In Stanley numbering parlance, the #5 jack is a happy middle ground that many find comfortable, but anything between 3 and 6 would considered "normal" for this task.



I really like my vintage Stanley 5 1/2, both for jointing and thicknessing guitar plates. It seems to be "just right", especially if upgraded with a Hock (or equivalent) iron and chip breaker. I have all sorts of planes, but this tool and the humble 60 1/2 combined do 90% of my guitar making planing tasks (not counting arch tops). They would both be part of my desert island guitar making survival kit...

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