Official Luthiers Forum!

I'm currently working on # 21 and I've been building for just over 3 years and I've been playing for 30 years. Last night at our Wednesday night jam session a friend brought in his new Rosewood/Sitka Breedlove guitar (I don't know the exact model). In short, it was a great guitar - beautiful abalone top purfling, rosette, and fretboard inlays, great finish. It included the usual onboard electronics - tuner, volume, tone, etc. and it sounded really good (not as good as my Monkey Pod OM that I was playing - and I was trying very hard to be objective) and played very nicely. Here's the kicker - he got it NEW with a very nice case for $750!

As I went into the shop this morning to continue working on my current build, I couldn't help but think 'how do I compete with that?'. I do a few of things (as we all do) that you won't see on "manufactured" guitars - compound radius FB, semi hemispherical fret ends, sound port, etc. I also know that I can make a guitar specifically for an individual.

I know that our goal as builders (some of us true luthiers - not me for a long time yet) is not to compete with the manufacturers, yet their products (and prices) cannot be ignored. What, in your opinion, differentiates our guitars from theirs? What makes a customer willing to pay thousands for ours vs. hundreds for theirs?

Thanks for your opinions....

Chuck

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"To live a creative life, we must lose our fear of being wrong"
- Joseph Chilton Pearce

You'd have to pay less than $100 for ALL the materials and spend no more than a couple of days in building it to even come close to meeting that kind of price.

At $750 for the kind of guitar that you describe, somebody isn't making any money!

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Expectation is the source of all misery; comparison the thief of joy.
http://redrivercanoe.ca/

Yes, it can seem rather daunting...

My friend said the $750 was "dealer cost", whatever that means.

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"To live a creative life, we must lose our fear of being wrong"
- Joseph Chilton Pearce

Filippo,
Thanks for your thoughts. I spent an early morning alone in the acoustic room at my local Guitar Center and played the most expensive guitars they had - Martins, Taylors, etc. - and I can humbly say that being as objective as I can be, they were not as good as what I'm building. The sound of my guitars is particularly better than the ones I played and the appearance is getting better with each guitar. That said, maybe I'm into more of a marketing issue here - how to find those who truly know the difference and are willing to pay for it.

Chuck

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"To live a creative life, we must lose our fear of being wrong"
- Joseph Chilton Pearce

You can go to Men's Warehouse and buy a nice suit for $250. It will look nice and, if you know a good tailor, can be made to fit very well. On the flip side, you can have a "bespoke" suit hand tailored to fit you like a glove, made from much finer cloth, and in a manner that accentuates your personal desirable features while masking undesirable features. Such a suit generally cost thousands of dollars. The cheap suit and the bespoke suit can look very similar to the outside observer (similar patterns, colors, cuts, etc.), but there is no comparison to the person who wears them. Men have been buying expensive, custom suits for as long as they have been in style. While it is harder today to find a tailor to create a bespoke suit and very nice manufactured suits can be purchased much cheaper, many still find the quality, fit, and look of a bespoke suit worth the extra cash.

The same seems to apply to the high-end, custom guitar culture. Sure you can get a very nice, very good sounding assembly line guitar for $1,000, give or take a few hundred. But if you do so, you won't get to collaborate with the builder to create a guitar to fit you and your needs, choose the appointments, follow along as your guitar comes to life, have the setup and sound tweaked you your liking, generally end up with a better sounding instrument, and, in most cases, benefit from an extensive warranty. Custom builds simply offer a unique experience and unique guitars. As long as there are people with sufficient capital, good taste, and a desire for unique, personalized, quality instruments, custom builders will be fine. Granted more custom builders equates to more competition in the high-end guitar sector, which will affect price.

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Aaron Craig

I would guess that a custom builder is probably more in competition with the higher end smaller factories/shops, such as Collings, Santa Cruz, Lowden, etc... than with the big guys like Taylor, Martin, Larrivee, etc.

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Jonathan Kendall, Siloam Springs AR

I used to work at a dealership that sold Breedlove guitars. I can say quite certainly, that I'm thoroughly uninterested in Breedlove guitars! if I were in the market for a luthier-built guitar I would be interested in yours. I don't like that clinically sterile sound. That's how you compete! Find more people like me. Or figure out a way to let them find you.



I also used to work for a big guitar company, setting up their guitars, and sending orders to music stores. I can tell you that I used to send the worst ones to the largest stores and the best to the smaller stores. In fact, I was instructed to. The locally owned places were picky, and at the corporate owned stores and mail order places, they are much less so. This was my experience. Now, I can't say that this is what they do at Martin or Taylor, but I can tell you that I have been to my local Guitar Center, and that I have also been to Elderly Instruments, and when I play the Martins and Taylors at Elderly, it's like a completely different ballgame! In fact, if I judged all Martins only by the ones that they have at my local Guitar Center, my opinion of Martin would be low.

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"...you have to get over your strict adherence to your largely imagined notion of absolute perfection..."

Now THAT is an interesting bit of information! I never would have suspected.

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Expectation is the source of all misery; comparison the thief of joy.
http://redrivercanoe.ca/

I suspected as much - it's the old story about manufacturers having a different lot of merchandise (of lower quality) going to the "big box discount stores" - without naming names - and better quality goods going to stores like Woodcraft, etc. But I digress - The only reason I stated how many guitars I've built and how long I've been a player is to humbly say that I think I know a good guitar when I see and play one. The $750 Breedlove was a "good" guitar - not as good an the ones I build, but $750.

Thanks to everyone for your input. I'm thinking about this a lot today (as I brace a beautiful Western Red Cedar top for an EIR OM) and it's good to hear what others have to say.

Thanks,
Chuck

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"To live a creative life, we must lose our fear of being wrong"
- Joseph Chilton Pearce

The problem is that sound is so subjective, whereas it's easy for anybody to see good fit and finish. Pewople focus on the easy thing.

In addition (my pet peeve), since the steel string guitar in this country is largely a 'factory' item, 'factory' standards prevail. People expect idenitical items with a flawless surface. Anybody making guitars from as variable a material as wood, and trying to keep to a high standard of acoustic performance, will find that they need to vary thjings from time to time, and you can't do that and maintain the F&F to factory standards unless your tool chops are pretty amazing.

Factories can build to averages, knoowing that every instrument they make will be somebody's 'Holy Grail'. All they have to do is find that person, and they have a happy customer.

We tend to have customers who want a particular sound, and we have to wrap a box around it. This can be like trapping smoke in a bottle.

In addition, as Kathy Wingert pointed out once, luthiers tend to do things that the factories don't even try to do. Stuff like mitered purfling on the back strip and end graft take time, and time is the most expensive input in a production setting.

The hardest part these days is setting yourself apart from the other luthiers. There are so many good makers around, holding to very high standards, that it's tough to stand out.

I gave up thinkin about the money part of building.
Adding up material cost,
hours of labor, etc.
I think one needs to just build the things the best you can,
and maybe something will click with selling someday.
A lady I know came up to me all excited and said " I just got a Taylor!".
I smiled and said "cool!".
What I thought was " so?".

I've decided that the competition (and their $750 guitars) is there to make me a better builder and that's all I can do. Onward and upward...

Chuck

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"To live a creative life, we must lose our fear of being wrong"
- Joseph Chilton Pearce

Definitely. And you know, there are always going to be scores of people that just think that their Ovation is the hottest thing *ever*, or that will have wet dreams about a 1970-something Martin that has the bridge glued on in the wrong place. (They can't even hear that it's wrong). Or the Breedlove you saw, with it's top-dampening device and all. People like that are always going to go for what they believe they want, and will never be persuaded to buy your guitar. So in that sense, the $750 thing can't be viewed as "competition" when it isn't that.

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"...you have to get over your strict adherence to your largely imagined notion of absolute perfection..."

Hi Chuck,

I've followed the forum for years but this is my first post. I saw your question here and as a marketing professional and amateur builder I thought I'd through my 2 cents in.

Consider what your target market is. Just as there are many people who would never pay $3000 or more for a guitar, there are also many people who would never pay under a $1000 for one. The fine builders in this forum should ignore the first group. You will never convince them if price is a consideration.

Another point is "exclusivity". This is why private clubs, expensive cars and gated communities exist. People want to have what few others do or can. A custom built guitar is absolutely exclusive.

Last point is getting your name out there. I see your in Texas but I don't know how far you're from Austin. In March the SXSW music conference is on. Over 1,000 bands appear during that time. Probably 40,000 people (musicians, producers, agents, fans, etc.) attend. If you're not to far from there I'd register for the conference, make business contacts using the tools their site provides and hang out near the convention center with a guitar, a sign and a shirt that has "custom guitars" in big letters both front and back.

You likely only need to find 10-15 a year to be a happy builder.

In closing, don't think you're competing against the factory-made, low-priced guitars any more than a Porche is competing against a Ford Focus (with apologies to Focus owners).

Pthes,
That's good advice. I love building and playing guitars, but I'd probably have trouble selling ice water in Hell. I stay in touch with the local musicians through playing (I'm in a band) performances and jam sessions as well as Facebook, but most of the professional musicians I know are broke. (What do you call a musician without a girlfriend? - Homeless.)

I'll have to look for either better musicians or successful business people who play guitar.

Thanks for your input.

Chuck

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"To live a creative life, we must lose our fear of being wrong"
- Joseph Chilton Pearce

Hey, Chuck,
I doubt my response will answer the question for you. However, if you have ever read "Acquired of the Angels" you will know that no less a luthier than John d'Angelico used to wrestle with this same question. In my view, though, it's a matter of one's personal philosophy about these things. I don't think you should waste a lot of time asking yourself these questions. Instead, you should ask yourself what it is about these other instruments that you respect. Next, ask yourself what it is about your own instruments that makes your customers want to buy them. Finally, ask yourself how you can combine all that information (with your own gifts as a builder) to further press into your customer market. In other words, don't waste a lot of emotional energy asking what the big name guys are going to do to you. Ask yourself what YOU are going to do for your market. Or...if you really want to get self indulgent (and that's not necessarily a bad thing), you can go so far as to ask yourself what you are going to do to the other guys! Chuck, they will probably beat you every time on sheer marketing efforts. (Doesn't mean they are any better at building instruments. In that scenario, it would only mean that they have deep financial resources.)

Let me put this one final way: Set your personal standards high. Keep them there. Build to your personal standards every single time. Strive to build higher each and every time. After you've done that, just relax, have faith in your personal standards, and allow your standards to speak for you. If you do that, you standards will ALWAYS protect you (and this goes for all aspects of one's life!)

Patrick

So true. To some people, or maybe even most people a guitar sounds like a......guitar. When I started building I had a goal tonewise. I've got a 1955 Martin D18 that, to me sounds like a guitar should. A friend has a ~10 year old Gibson Advanced Jumbo that also get's my attention. Those 2 guitars were my benchmark. I kept taking guitars apart, sawing them up, and trying again until I met, and exceeded that benchmark. By that time my fit an finish were where they should be.

From my standpoint I'm not worried about competition from the big companies for 2 reasons.

1. I honestly believe I'm making a better guitar, even though some of them do a terrific job with mass production.
2. "They" have to find buyers for thousands of guitars a year. I need to find buyers for less than 10 a year.

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I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said.
http://www.brackettinstruments.com/

Hi Chuck,

Just to expand on the "stick to your strengths" comments, don't be afraid to pay someone to sell your guitars or get leads you can follow up on. Afterall, the pros on this forum are paying someone to grow wood, harvest shell, make fretwire and the list goes on. Consider "selling" to be another input to the final product and build it into the price. My belief is that at the level these instruments should sell for the additional cost shouldn't matter that much.

You may already know someone that "has the gift of gab" and knows guitars. It would be a part-time thing for someone where they could make $200-$300 per guitar or better still make a deal where if they sell a certain number you build them one for nothing or material cost. That way you're trading selling time for building time.

I think these are very good comments.

My wife and I spent about $14000 going to Europe for a couple of weeks. Great trip and no regrets. I have nothing to show for it except the memories of the experience. The photos only serve to help recall the memories. The experience with a luthier is an important part of the experience and value IMHO, and costs a lot less than most travel experiences.

VERY HONEST feedback can be a very scary thing. But I think that Filippo is correct in wanting this to improve building.

Chuck, have you sought this from a good builder?

Ed

Very well said, Patrick. That's what I try to do and as most of us are, I'm my own worst critic. All of this great feedback is very much appreciated. Thanks to everyone.

Chuck

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"To live a creative life, we must lose our fear of being wrong"
- Joseph Chilton Pearce

The competition caters to the consumer and the consumer don't know diddle squat from that hole in the ground.

If your finding yerself up against the competition, your still thinking consumer not conousur.
Consumers don't buy custom made axes...well a few of them do.

Is like this ...most people can't tell the difference between $20 bottle of wine or a $100 bottle.
Is just that not many drink $100 bottles.

Stop thinking about the competition and the consumer. Thats the low end of dip stick.


Blessings
Padma

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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Hey, just look at the music that "sells"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have played a bunch of those $750.00 Breedloves.... My impression was "Wow, they sure are shiney"....

Think about this... What's the differentiating factor between 10-million Chinese knockoff guitars? Mostly, it is visual "Features".... Wow, that one has a Rosewood back and sides.... This one has a "Solid Mahogany" neck.... That other one has Abalone purfling all over the place.... and this last one here advertises "Vintage Toner Genuine Lacquer Finish!"

Sadly, beneath all that stuff - they are still the same $199 guitar - same 1/8" thick top and back, same basic bracing pattern, same hot glue construction, same giant bridge plate..... and they all sound basically the same....

It's sad to me - go to a big guitar shop... I have a *REALLY* hard time telling the most of the $299 guitars apart from the $1,500 guitars on sound.... The differences are so subtle and fleeting....

Then, you get your hands on a real Luthier Guitar... and it's something different... It feels different, it plays different, and it sounds different - like what a "Real Guitar" is supposed to sound like - not like a plastic toy with fishing line strings on it....

Thanks

This post really has nothing to do with building a better guitar than someone else - but is more about the marketing angle.

Chuck, this may sound odd - but get good at photography.

My son and I are just now working on our 10th guitar - but what we have done so far has been quite successful from a "marketing" standpoint.

We frequent another board - the Acoustic Guitar Forum - and for the past 2 years have been posting photos of our builds - and outlining our progress as builders. I've tried to take nice "creative" photos and post them on AGF. From doing this we got quite a few inquiries wanting to know if we were selling guitars.

At the same time we built our web site - and posted more photos there. Once we had a couple guitars sold we asked for reviews - and posted those to the web site. We now have a good amount of orders for a couple guys only building 4 guitars per year (so far)

It's pretty easy to generate some excitement with all the "tools" at our disposal. As others have said, you can buy a guitar from just about anywhere these days, but there is something very special about the experience of teaming up with someone on a custom build. And there are people who WANT this experience. You just need to show them.

We recently finished a guitar for a customer who wanted a theme guitar to honor his brother who passed away last year. He wanted a surf theme - so we did a surfboard on the headstock, did surfboard crack-stops, did a wave sound port and a 24-piece wave rosette (Thanks Dave Fifield!!!).

You're not going to find that kind of guitar in a store, and we're discovering there's a big market for people who want something "one off" and those don't come with a price tag of $750.

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P A U L B U R N E R
Burner Guitars