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For years I have been fuming about the fact that I can't get clean alcohol for french polishing. Periodically I get the idea I will make my own moonshine... I should add I am pretty much teatotal. I did once get some 190 proof alcohol in Nashville, and strung out that little bottle for quite a while making french polish. It was like working with honey and had none of the bad habits of the high priced trash I otherwise have to use.

Anyway, I got a brainwave tonight, what about just distilling denatured alcohol, none of that nonsense about making mash, it would be 190 proofish to start with, with the rest methanol and water. It was hard to get reliable info, because much of the discussion concerns residual toxicity for winos. I am under no circumstances drinking the stuff, just spending hours moving it around the dance floor.

So here is the idea. Some folks mention simply putting denatured alcohol of the 95/5 ethanol/methanol variety in a tube and letting it settle out for a week. In my particular application I could wait much longer, because I use very little of the stuff. A tube with an ID o 3/4", and a length of 6' has been mentioned, then you capture the middle 50%. I was thinking a flexy pipe where I could simply clamp off the middle half and dump the upper and lower segments.

So here are my questions:

1) will it work to the extent that the resultant material while still not safe to drink will be significantly reduced in nastiness;

2) how long till something significant happens, and what about the other details of the rig. Any suggestions on a good hose that won't just load the alcohol up with a lot of plasticizers;

3) how can I cheaply test my results; burn flame colour, hydrometer, smell, taste (a wet finger presumably would be safeish)...

for the time being, I don't care about legality because it is highly context specific; or the fact than many regions have different recipes for their denatured alcohol; or sell Everclear. Assume logical parameters.

Any better ideas? I know we have a lot of smart technical people here...

I'm not a chemist, but I don't think you'd be able to seperate the methanol from the ethanol. Once mixed I suspect the 2 substances bind together. One of the big problems with denatured alcohol is different makers use different stuff to.....denature it. Again, I'm not a chemist, but I burned methanol in race cars for years and I've suffered no ill effects from it. (Other than glowing in the dark, and intermittent memory loss LOL)
The MSDS health rating on the denatured alcohol I've got in my shop is "2", same as turpentine. No one refers to turpentine as "poison". "Normal" safety precautions should be sufficient to use denatured alcohol. I suspect that trying to separate the "bad" stuff may actually expose you to more potential health risks than just using it as is. IMHO the "3" rating on flammibility should be more of a concern than the "2" health rating. The flammibility rating on Everclear would also be "3".

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Tom,
Go here and be a sponge:
http://homedistiller.org/forum/
It is something that is easy to do, easy too go to jail over and easy to burn your house down doing in the process so please do your homework. I would use high proof rum as your starting point and forget the DNA.

You too?

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Waddy

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Thanks. I am not really worried about health affects, it just isn't as nice stuff as using the raw alcohol, but i can't get that up here. I would regard standing it in a pipe to be a burden about as deep as running a varnish through a filter. Therefore not unreasonable if it had any effect. But I am no chemist.

Here is the original stuff I read about it. They are negative on the subject because drinking was the end result. For me, if I could get even half the methanol out it would be a win.

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"Get a very long piece of pipe, I'd guess at least 3/4" inside diameter and 6 to 8 feet long. Put a small valve on one end. At the bare minimum , perhaps it'll work with a chunk of garden hose and a nozzle, the twist kind working better. Set pipe upright, nice and vertical, valve down, or just hang hose from open end. Fill with the denatured alcohol. Wait. Ethanol molecules are heavier than methanol so they will settle to the bottom. However there may be other additives that are heavier than ethanol so they will settle underneath the ethanol. Settling will take time, leave the pipe completely undisturbed for at least a week. Then, very carefully and slowly from the valve at the bottom, drain off 1/4 of the tube, discard. That would have stuff that's heavier than the ethanol and not in solution with the ethanol. Drain off the next 1/2 of the tube, save. The remaining 1/4 of the tube would contain methanol and things lighter than ethanol that are not in solution with it, discard.

The amount you saved, for the chemistry I remember, will be a more concentrated form of ethanol than what you started with, with less of the toxins. In No Way Whatsoever Is It To Be Considered SAFE, it's merely safer. If it worked at all, you've thrown away about 40% of the ethanol but that was the part most likely to have most of the methanol and other toxins. The 50% you've saved will still have stuff that was in solution in the ethanol, small amount of methanol, some other stuff. It's a crappy separation method, but... It's cheap, easy to do..."
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"So, we go in reverse, long tube. There are limits, if i tried to use a tube of only 1/64" inside diameter it wouldn't matter if it went a half mile straight up, I wouldn't expect to see significant separation within a year, not enough molecular motion in not enough directions. About 3/4" dia by 6 ft looks right, enough cross-sectional area for meaningful separation with, important thing, enough length to get distinct "zones" to form. The 1/4-1/2-1/4 scheme selects a zone that the methanol should be practically out of while also rejecting any other additives that are heavier or lighter than ethanol. While it is possible that certain additives could be strongly enough bound to the ethanol to not separate, I would think that would interfere with the desired industrial properties of the ethanol thus they wouldn't be allowed. Additives whose molecules had the same approximate mass as ethanol would however remain, but methanol is the main concern.

Then the only remaining ingredient, is time. If it works at all, and I don't see why it won't work at least somewhat, a week of being left alone should yield measurable separation, hopefully a good deal. Granted a year would likely be better than a week, but as this is an, umm, "immediate need," a week would achieve the basic objective of reducing the methanol within a timeframe that should be acceptable.

Hmm, thought of an improvement. Funnel. At the top have a funnel or similar enlargement attached to the pipe or hose, fill so the funnel will have liquid in it too, the methanol will rise into the funnel where the larger surface area will yield greater evaporation than the pipe/hose alone would, further reducing the methanol concentration."

The whole idea behind denatured alcohol is that it's supposed to be difficult enough to seperate the chemicals so that there's no practical way to render it safe for drinking. Presumably, if one know what they used to denature the stuff, and was a really good chemist, you could do it, but, again, it's not supposed to be easy.

I've got an old Chemistry handbook that lists dozens of different recipes for making denatured alcohol. The ingredients range from ipicac and nicotine to gasoline, and even shellac. In any given batch that you get from the hardware store you just can't know what's in it (again, that's part of the idea) and I assume the denaturants vary depending on what's cheapest at the time. Certainly I've had different batches, even from the same maker, that smelled different, and worked differently too.

A local old-timer used to make his own applejack. He'd make a barrel of cider, and leave it on the back porch to work. When the nights were clear and the temps dropped to -20F he'd put a bucket if cider out in the driveway. In the morning he'd take the ice off the top, and what was left had all the alcohol in it, along with ketones and other stuff you really should not drink. It's possible those could be distilled out, of course, or removed in some other way.

Thanks Alan.

The fact that they mix it up a lot tends to indicate it should be easy to separate out the methanol, after all, why bother with ipicac, if the stuff that makes you blind is really hard to get out. The bad side of that argument is that it may not really be the methanol that is giving people the bad results. Also, relative to difficulty, they only need to make it difficult to render potable. I don't care about that. I could easily tolerate stuff that was just better than raw denatured, since that is my alternative source.

My original question presupposes there is a source of pure denatured that uses only methanol in it. And that appears to be actually the case in the biofuels world. But maybe I won't actually be able to get to it. But just imagine one could, would stratification separate it? That's the question. There may be other issues, but I am curious to know about the stratification.

I am reminded though, that there is one rock I have left unturned. While Ontario is possible the most alcohol restricted first world jurisdiction, neighbouring Quebec is a lot more open. If they have 190 proof for sale, that would be far easier and more direct than what I am contemplating.

As a chemistry teacher I can tell you that simply letting the denatured alcohol sit in a tube will not cause the ethanol to settle to the bottom. Due to the polarity of the molecules and the unavoidable motion of the molecules the mix will remain a solution indefinitely. True distillation may be able to separate the mix, but since the molecules are so similar even then it would be pretty difficult to get it pure.

But then if it was that easy to purify it (and make it drinkable) then it would be taxed just like all other alcoholic beverages and it still wouldn't be worth the effort.

Kent

Kent probably knows better than I, but looking online, I don't know if the separation would work. The densities are very close and even if separation was possible, it would have to be very still a very long time with no temperature changes. If it were going to work, I wonder if you could tell by looking through it and looking for a change layer, or passing a laser through and seeing the angle it came out? The indexes of refraction seem pretty similar to me, but I don't have a frame of reference to know how much change is significant.

Also, there is a difference in both the boiling and melting points of ethanol and methanol. If you can get it down to -110 C you should be able to pour off the good stuff and toss the frozen chunk of methanol in your wood stove. You're from Canada right? So you can just set it in a pan outside over night. That ought to do it. (keep it protected from thirsty critters from drinking it)

And if you're interested in setting up home distillation, it should also be possible (but potentially dangerous).

Either way, I would not trust the home DIYer to make it safe to drink, but you might at least blow up your house, which I've heard is always exciting.

Mike
P.S. Don't throw a bunch of methanol in your wood stove.

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Mike Lindstrom

Thanks Kent, it sounded far fetched, but it would be nice even if it were far from perfect. I was hopeful that the method would work but not be a solution for potability. But if there are physical reasons why the mixed components will not separate by virtue of their density, then that is that. Normally this kind of settling is what one expects from sediments, but then one can't see it with clear liquids so who knows what happens.

Never seen or heard of a bottle of booze separating into layers of alcohol and water if "left to settle"
Imagine, for example, a salt and water mixture separating, despite the different densities? Soap and water?
Just doesn't seem to make sense to me.

_________________
The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

TomDI wrote:
"The fact that they mix it up a lot tends to indicate it should be easy to separate out the methanol, after all, why bother with ipicac, if the stuff that makes you blind is really hard to get out. "

I guess I was not clear in my post: not all denatured alcohol has methanol in it. What you use as a denaturant depends on what you're going to use the alcohol for: if, for example, it's going to be used to wash down tobacco proccessing equipment then you might denture it with nicotine, _instead_ of methanol. It would still be undrinkable, but there would be no chance of leaving anything harmful behind that's not already there in the tobacco.

Methanol has a lower boiling point than Ethanol by about 5 degrees, Celsius. With an accurate thermometer and close monitoring, you can boil off the Methanol (and water) leaving only ethanol, using a small, steady flame. It would be somewhat dangerous, and not something you'd want to do in your garage. (Outdoors in the back yard, maybe.)

Well, I have my Ph.D. in organic chemistry. Ethanol and methanol are totally miscible, meaning that they are completely soluble in each other. They will never ever separate out on standing.

Concerning distillation. Some liquids form azeotropes, such as ethanol and water. This means that they co-distill in a given ratio. For example 95% ethanol : 5% water. Thus it is impossible to separate the two by distillation. The azeotrope will distill off first until one of the components is depleted.

Fortunately methanol and ethanol do not form an azeotrope. But, other solvents are often added to denature alcohol. Sometimes there are ternary azeotropes with 3 components as well.

However even if you have a pure mixture of methanol and ethanol, the boiling points are close enough that you would need a good fractionating column (large number of theoretical plates) to separate them. Simply using a small flame will not do it and you're likely blow yourself up.

In other words, don't do it. It would be easier to make moonshine.

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Randy Muth
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Randy-
Thanks for saving this retired chem teacher a lot of typing!
Beautifully explained, BTW.

Letting alcohol 'settle out' .....where do these ideas come from???

Happy New Year, everybody!

John

Thanks John, and thanks for showing me that "head banging against the wall" emoticon. I think I might be using that quite a bit.

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Randy Muth
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I kinda groan when I see these posts about distilling denatured alcohol... Don't try it.... Not worth it... There are less painful ways to kill yourself... Commercial paint store denatured alcohol is a terrible brew of stuff you just won't separate without some really expensive industrial equipment...

What's wrong with buying a bottle of specialty shellac solvent at the local woodworking store - or if you absolutely *GOTTA* have ethanol - a bottle of the Super High Octane Everclear... available at most local Liquor stores.... If they don't have it - most places will certainly order you a bottle...

Thanks

According to wikipedia, it is illegal to sell 190 proof everclear in 14 states and many parts of Canada. I think the OP can't get EC, but has found it works better for French Polishing. It's legal in Colorado and all I've ever used, so I don't know.

But you're right. Dangerous hobby.

Mike
PS Thanks chemists for chiming in.

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Mike Lindstrom

Hey Tom

Just noticed that you're from Ontario. Try contacting the folks at Commercial Alcohol if you're after pure ethanol ... they'll tell you how to get a licence from the LCBO to purchase the pure stuff from them. It's an easy process ... just basically fax the LCBO a letter telling them what you're using it for and approx how much you'll use per year and they fax you a letter authorizing you to buy it.
http://www.comalc.com/uGrades.php.

Also, the denatured ethanol from Goudey's works great for French Polishing.
http://www.goudeymfg.com/index.php/other-products/solvents.html

Cheers!

David Wren http://www.wrenguitarworks.com

There is a 13 degree c difference in the boiling temp of Methanol and Ethanol (according to wiki), so that sounded like a sufficient difference. Some of this is getting off topic (no problem) because of the assumption I won't have 95/5 denatured as a starting grade, and that I need to refine it for potability.

Thanks David, that must be what Serge was doing. The 200% anhydrous might be worth the effort. Someone else has found out that one can get a 180 for sure in Quebec, and is going to check on the availability of 190 for me. 190 that could be legally purchased without a lot of non-sense would be nice. I'm not interested in 180.

By the way David, have you tried Goudey lacquer or sealer. I am looking for a local source. I bought ten gallons of their wood oil once, and it stripped the skin off a friend's hands. Didn't bother my gloves though.

Tom, 13 degrees is closer than you think. You would still need a good fractionating column.

I think you will pay a premium for anhydrous ethanol (200 proof, i.e. 100%) and it's probably not worth it. It will start to pick up moisture from the air as soon as you open it or as you are using it. Eventually it will become 95% ethanol with water. As a chemist I used to work with rigorously anhydrous solvents all the time. We all dried our own because you couldn't trust that the stuff you bought was absolutely dry. There are various methods for drying depending on the solvent. After the solvents were dried they were stored over molecular sieves to help keep them dry.

I would go with 190 proof (95%) grain alcohol.

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Randy Muth
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Tom

You can buy 94% ethanol at the Quebec liquor stores, but it is $61 a qt. Here is their site. http://www.saq.com/webapp/wcs/stores/se ... _category=

Bob

Thanks Randy and Bob.

61 bucks is not unexpected, but I paid something like a 1/5 of that in Nashville in 2000. I now recall why I hoped it would stratify. Maybe I could just go back to believing that, and feeling good about using Denatured alcohol on a placebo kind of basis.

Hi Tom

Sorry, but I haven't tried the Goudey lacquer or sealer. Many (many) years ago, their lacquer didn't have very encouraging cold cycle specs, but they may have cleared that up. I had supper with Grit on Tuesday and I think he's back to using McFaddens (or whatever they're called these days) with sealer and is happy with it ... but of course that's not local. Serge doesn't do the Commercial Alcohols route, but has some complicated licence (might require a large deposit ... not sure) that somehow gets around the huge liquor taxes. If memory serves, I bought ten 500ml bottles of the 200 proof ethyl anhydrous for $89.00 and there was an additional $70. liquor tax! My output is under 20 guitars a year, so I don't need nearly as much as Serge does though. Good luck on that!

David Wren http://www.wrenguitarworks.com

Thanks David, if I could get 500ml for 20 dollars I would be well pleased, have to see how it turns out.