Official Luthiers Forum!

Hey there guys. I'm a high school student and an avid guitar player and would love to begin creating my own instruments. Does anyone have any tips as to how I should go about accomplishing this task? What I would love to do is to become an apprentice to an established luthier, but I can not find any in my area, which is the northwest suburbs of Chicago. Does anyone have any info on luthiers in my area or how I should begin my guitar building career on my own? Many thanks to all that help!

Howdy, and welcome to the forum!

First thing, buy Cumpiano & Natelson's book http://www.amazon.com/Guitarmaking-Tradition-Technology-Construction-Steel-String/dp/0811806405/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1293580339&sr=8-1
It's cheap, and will give you a good run-through of the build process, and how to do it without expensive power tools. If you can't find an experienced luthier who wants to take on a student, just go at it on your own. There's a whole internet of knowledge available, so it's nowhere near as hard as it would have been in the old days

Another thing to do is start shopping the estate sales, garage sales, etc. for tools You can get some great ones for next to nothing that way. Planes, saws, chisels, spokeshaves, a hand drill. Old planes may require flattening though.

I wrote a list of my "essential" tools in a post a while back, but it's changed a bit now so I could write out the updated list if you want.

Keep in mind that this is not a cheap hobby to get into... although not terribly expensive either. Expect to be about $1000-2000 in the hole by the end of your first one. More if you want a bandsaw, drum sander, side bending machine... After that, it's about $250-300 per instrument if you buy wood pre-cut into blanks for guitar parts, plus more if you want rare woods, lots of shell inlay, fancy tuners, electronics. But you can certainly get an instrument done for less than $100 if you're thrifty and willing to work.

And never forget the golden rule of building as a guitar player... don't cut off your fingers. Serious.

Thank you for the info! I would greatly appreciate an updated list of tools, it would help a lot I'm sure. I do already have many basic woodworking tools as my father was a carpenter and currently is a woodshop teacher. I have access to a bandsaw, drills, routers, sanders, and a lot more, but a list that would help me identify exactly what I need would be great! Thanks!

You should be good to go man. Get you a few books and study them. Since you have all the power tools just collect specialty tools you'll need as you need them. This will stretch the work out a bit and help you remain sane too, for the time being. LMI sells custom guitar kits with all the raw wood and parts to build a guitar, probably a great starting point. Come on over here for suggestions on jigs and fixtures or methods for finishing and such. Before you get your bending setup you might want to look up all the different setups people use. Some of them are dirt cheap. Mine was. Much more economical than an electric bender from a specialty store, in some cases much better too. Bear in mind that this is an expensive endeavor and it may be quite a while before you make any money from it at all.

Welcome to the forum. You and I seem pretty similar. I'm a High School freshman and have been building for about three years (only 1 1/2 of serious building). I was originally seeking out luthiers to get an apprenticeship, but soon learned from John Monteleone and Cris Mirabella that most professional luthiers really don't want apprentices (with the great Ervin Somogyi being an exception.) I have built two really good guitars (and a few not so good ) by reading internet forums like this and reading different lutherie books. My favorite, and the most informative is Ervin Somogyi's book set, "The Responsive guitar". At $265 (or $165 on amazon) this book is probably not something you should get if you are still just thinking about this. Some tools I would recommend getting are a really good set of chisels (I like 2 Cherries chisels), a decent block plane (Stanley), Cabinet Scrapers, lots of sandpaper, a bending iron (I would get pre bent sides for my first guitar), a good router, a set of drill bits, LOTS OF CLAMPS, a spoke shave, and most important good attention to detail. Definitely buy the Cumpiano book and remember not to buy expensive wood for your first. You might want to go to the LMII (luthiers mercantile international) website and design a kit that will work for you. Building a guitar is a really fun thing to do, and if you want to, you defiantly should. I'm the only one one in my schools guitar club that has built the guitar they play and it's a really cool feeling. Here is a picture of my latest guitar.

Brian

Getting a frontal lobotomy is a good start.

If your just leaving school, get a trade behind you so you can earn money because there is none in lutherie until you have a good number of years under you belt and even then its hit and miss. Not trying to kill the dream, but unless there is an 'extraordinary' circumstance which sees success blossom over night, you will need something else behind you while you gain experience in your spare time.

If you don't believe me, look at the demographic....Hands up all those under 20 making their sole income from lutheir. This means you are paying your own way, your mortage, your bills, maybe feeding the wife and kids etc, etc, and have some change left for a cold beer now and then...anyone??? Hello....Helloo!...Helooooo!!!!

OK then, hands up all those under 25 who are making their sole income from lutherie.......anyone?

How about under 30??

35?

40?

OK then, never mind...hands up all those guys who have always worked in a job/jobs not related to lutheire in order to earn money, buy a home with workshop so you don't need to rent one, and pay the bills etc and have been drawn to this craft as a hobby to escape those pressures but sometimes manage to get lucky, or hope to, by selling off one of your creations just a bit over cost of materials which helps subsidize the over all 'cost' of your participation in this past time......Oh there you are..



Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that noone is making a living in this craft, but the truth is that if your around school leaving age, then your probably best focusing on getting a decent paying skill under your belt that will allow you to then move sideways into lutherie as time and circumstance permits.

Cheers

Kim

Thank you all for your responses. Nice guitar by the way Brian. And Kim, I am not planning on pursuing guitar building as a career, more as a hobby so I can make my own guitars or as a side job that I can make a few bucks on. I did like your little presentation though!

LOL!!! Yup - that be me!

Sorry, I was a little confused.

Good to hear you in touch with the realities of the situation though.

Cheers

Kim

Alrighty, here we go!

Hand tools:
Block plane with normal blade and toothed blade (easy to make yourself from a regular blade).
Plane for jointing plates and thicknessing plates by hand. 10-15" long should do it.
Finger plane for shaping braces. Stephen Boone makes great ones.
Spokeshave for shaping neck. I use the "Flat Bottom Kunz Light" here.
Ryoba saw (they look like this), good for neck scarf joints and various cuts.
Alternatively, this Tajima saw is great for scarf joints if you can't find a good deal on a ryoba saw.
Coping saw and a pack of assorted blades for it
Jeweler's saw (not really necessary if you don't want to do inlays)
Fret slotting saw.
Flush cut nippers for clipping fret ends.
1/2" chisel.
Something for splitting brace stock. I use a 1" chisel and then a wedge shaped piece of wood.
Hand drill and a set of bits. You could use an electric, but I'm much more comfy with manual.
Scraper. I pretty much only use a .8mm rectangular one.
Bastard file, for sharpening the scraper and beveling fret ends... although rounding them with this file is preferable.
Needle files. Mainly a knife style and half-round, for nut slots and saddle shaping.
Rasp.
X-acto knife.
Radius sanding block for the fingerboard. Make your own or buy from LMI/StewMac. I also use one end of mine as a fret pressing caul.
Bridge pin reamer. You can have my cheapo Grizzly for cost of shipping if you want... it's awful, but gets the job done.
Gramil, used along with a chisel for cutting binding channels.

Measuring tools:
Either a 36" ruler graduated to at last 1/32" and 24" straight edge, or one 36" graduated straight edge.
7" combination square. Doubles as a short straight edge.
A plate thickness caliper is nice to have and easy to make from plywood and a dial indicator.
Scale, such as this. Not required, but highly valuable for record keeping.

Clamps:
Cam clamps. Two 4", two 6", two 8".
Two bar clamps.
Two small C clamps.
A dozen or so little pinchy clamps for gluing kerfed linings.
30 spool clamps for gluing on the back... or go-bars, or the rope technique in the Cumpiano book.
Vise. Possibly could get by without this, but certainly useful.

Adhesives (interesting thread going on for this):
Hide glue, and something to keep it warm, such as a Little Dipper with a candy thermometer in it to monitor temperature.
LMI white glue, or Titebond.
Blue masking tape.
LMI's binding tape... or a bunch of cotton rope to wrap around and around to clamp it on.

Abrasives:
Garnet paper grits 60, 100, 220.
Cork lined sanding block. Mine is 1x3x6" with the edges rounded over.
Wet/dry sandpaper, one sheet each of grits 180, 220, 320, 400, 600, 1500, for tool sharpening and nut/saddle shaping.
Something for finer sharpening. 3M micro abrasive, Japanese waterstone, extra fine diamond stone, or what I use is a cheap thing my dad made... a stick of wood with emery cloth glued to it, and bobbing compound rubbed on it.
Scrap of leather with jeweler's rouge rubbed on it for stropping.

Power tools:
Drill or drill press that can take bits large enough for tuner holes.

Dremel with router base from StewMac, or make your own. I use the Black & Decker Dremel knockoff, but its price seems to have gone up $15 recently so it's not really any cheaper.
End mill bits 1/32", 1/16", and 1/8". [url=http://www.precisebits.com/default.htm]precisebits.com[.url] is good. Get at least two 1/32", they're very useful but break easily. Get a 1/64" too if you like inlay. Get the depth ring on all of them. I use this for inlays, truss rod slots, and rosette/soundhole cutting. Circle cutter is two popsicle sticks with holes drilled in them, screwed to the router base
A cutoff wheel is handy for making other tools. I've used it for cutting the teeth in my block plane blade and for making a fret tang nipper out of a nibbling tool (just grind a slot into the face of it right above the cutting part). Always make sure you keep it cooled with water.

Side bender. Mine is a hot pipe. Electric charcoal starter ($15 at Lowes) run through a 500W dimmer switch ($10 on Amazon), squeezed in a vise until it fits into a hunk of 3" diameter exhaust pipe that I got for free from the scrap bin at a muffler shop, bolted to a scrap of wood with L brackets for easy mounting to the porch when I need it (I worry excessively about house fires from using it indoors).

Finishing supplies:
I do French polishing, so the ingredients are:
Shellac (lightest color from LMI).
Pumice from LMI.
Muslin and cheesecloth from the local fabric store.
Everclear from the local liquor store.
Pure walnut oil from the grocery store.
Little plastic squeeze bottles that I found at the fabric store (JoAnn). I also use one of these for hide glue.

Safety equipment:
Safety glasses, always wear them when running the Dremel router or cutoff wheel.
Earplugs, mainly for truss rod slot routing.
Rubber gloves for French polishing.
If you're better than me, a respirator. I bought one but never use it. Prefer to take things outside with a fan for heavy sanding, and keep shell wet when cutting inlays so I don't get the nasty dust all over to stir up later.


Whew! That's a lot of tools, and I really would be sad if any one of them went away. And now I have a nice list to link people back to whenever the need arises Hopefully I didn't forget anything important.

Having access to a bandsaw, you can save yourself a lot of money by buying lumberyard wood and doing laminated necks, cutting your own binding strips, might find some suitable fingerboard/bridge wood, or even soundboard/back/side wood, especially if you do 3 or 4 piece tops and backs.

Oh, and I agree with Brian that Ervin Somogyi's books are excellent, and will help you develop your tone shaping skills much faster than you would just shooting in the dark. Buy them if you can afford them, it's a bargain at the Amazon price.

Here is a thread I started last year on the UMGF.
http://theunofficialmartinguitarforum.yuku.com/topic/93479?page=1

Wow thanks Dennis and Oval Soundhole. I'm happy to announce that I just purchased a brand new copy of Guitarmaking: Tradition and Technology by Cumpiano for $21 with shipping from ebay! I looked up the Kit Wizard on LMI's site and I'm thinking that I'm going to get one of their kits because I was able to get the dreadnought down to an outrageous price!

Reading over that list, I noticed that LMI is mentioned about 90% more than StewMac. Is this because it's cheaper? Better quality? What?

Sounds like you're off to a good start! A kit is a good idea, as it will save you from needing a lot of those tools upfront and get you building sooner. You can still do final thicknessing of the plates with sandpaper/scraper and carve the braces however you like, which are the main tone effectors. Although building to dimensions in the plan may turn out best before you've learned a lot about bracing.


Both are great. LMI just has a larger wood selection, so I tend to order from them more often so I can combine shipping between tools and wood. But I've got another order built up at StewMac that I'll fire off as soon as I have immediate need for any of the items in it
Now that I think about it, I should order from SM more often since they're so much closer, so stuff gets here faster.

I can't believe no one's said it yet...


Wait for it...


Wait...


Learn to use the search function here. To supplement the books, search the archives here. There's tons of great info here. Everyone has there own way of doing things. Find a few different ways to accomplish what you need to do, pick the best methods for you, and get to work!

_________________
Rob

Jesse: Take Brian's( oval soundhole) tip and go to the post on Unoffical Martin Guitar Forum and find Frank Ford's comments. Read them and reread them.The best advice I've ever seen written for someone who is really interested.
Tom

_________________
A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!

Don't forget Youtube...

Can I suggest from expeirence, dont go out and buy a whole load of tools at once, get them as you need them and when you know what techniques you are going to use.

For planes, I's suggest you either save up for a Lie Nielsen or one of the other good makes, or find someone to teach you how to recondition old planes and how to sharpen blades. Then you can go and find old ones to do up which is often much better value and teaches you a whole load of skills into the bargain. I find a small block plane by Lie Nielsen one of my most used tools. I find a bandsaw almost essential, for all the jig making you will be doing once you decide to start making from scratch.

Yeah, what Yvonne said...But make sure before you start anything that you get urself a good precision engineers square, because with most wood work, if its not 'square', then your only magnifying the problem you have created if you go forward from there.

Cheers

Kim

Becomming a luthier is like being a great artist ! you work hard at the craft for most of your life , and when your dead they will say " He was a GREAT Luthier !

JUSSSSTTTT KIDDDING

I started out buying the "repair projects" off ebay and learning the workings , then decided to try it myself !

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Dennis -

Thanks for the link to the graduated straight edge. I've been wanting something like that. As for the rest of your list, you couldn't possibly need all of those tools. I do just fine without... ... ...

Um. That's a lot of tools.

I would move the safety equipment to the top of the list. I think too often, people get into woodworking thinking they'll get the safety stuff if it turns out they're going to do it a lot. But the eye protection especially is not for long term exposure. You could need them the first time you fire up a power tool.

I can't imagine how I'd get by without my vice.

Things I's add:
I love my Safe-T-Planer. If you've got a drill press, it's cheap, and it's a great way to rough thickness plates.

Thin and medium CA glue - It doesn't have a specific job in the guitar side of my shop, but it useful to have around. I don't seem to ever go to bed without some on my fingers from one project or another.

Under french polish, I found health food stores have little bottles with eye droppers in the lids. They work great.

And I am a fan of the Somogyi books, if I had read them before I had build a guitar or two they would not have been very helpful to me. I'd wait on them until you have a better frame of reference to process the information.

The other thing I'd say is cheap tools are NEVER a bargain. You don't need Lie Nielsen for everything, but don't get a cheap plane, or crappy chisels. You can get old ones and tune them up. You can get decent new (friends like their Wood River planes for instance), but the rasp from the Depot, the plane from Ace, everything I ever bought from HF were wasted money. It is worth it to wait until you can afford a good tool than to buy a bad one.

And to follow that up. Learn to sharpen. Sharper tools are safer. Todd Stock here has good advice. Search the web for "Scary Sharp." It's not the only or "best" way, but it's cheap and works as good as any.

Mike

_________________
Mike Lindstrom

Thanks guys, all this info is great! As to what guitars I would like to build, I would like to build steel strings and hollowbody and solidbody electrics. I think I am going to take what seems to be everyone's advice on other forums and just start buying cheap yardsale guitars to fix up once the summer hits. Hopefully it will let me hone some skills before I actually attempt to build a guitar and will keep me from completely ruining everything on it. haha

As they say .."don't quit your day job.."

The majority of the American public can't afford quality handmade items whether furniture, jewelry, or guitars.
Of the small group that have the cash many have an affinity for brand names, they would rather spend $4 k for a brand name guitar rather than having one custom made.

Learn a trade or profession, something where at the end of your training you can actually do something whether it is wiring up an electrical panel or stitching up a wound. Get as many real world skills under your belt as you can to finance your life. Pushing paper or selling derivatives doesn't cut it in my book.

That being said, my 2 cents...

Don't run out and buy a bunch of new tools off a list. Lie Nielsen is good stuff but some of the stuff is like tool porno. Not very practical for someone on a limited budget just starting out.

When you are hitting those garage sales looking for junk guitars to fix keep your eye out for older quality tools.

For planes look for older Stanley planes, in older chisels Stanley 720's, anything from E.A. Berg, older Buck or Pexto. Find yourself a used Starret or Lufkin combination square, and a 6" rule, a dial caliper, look for cabinet scrapers and burnishers for them, almost no one knows what they are and you can find them cheap.

I would like to recommend another book- Build Your Own Acoustic guitar by Jonathan Kinkead.
The photos in this book are great and in color, and it also comes with a full size plan (OM?)A great book no matter what you want to build.

The Somogyi books are great but if you haven't built at least one guitar they won't be
so good. Kind of like being a virgin with a copy of the Karma Sutra.

I think it's great that you are getting an early start, wish I had started building 25 years ago before I
had to worry about other thing like paying a mortgage having kids etc. Right now you are relatively
unencumbered by adult type responsibilities.

Whatever you end up doing don't stop learning keep on challenging yourself.

Some stuff to keep an eye out for... photo attached

I just started last year, and there are quite a few of us noobs here, so you are not alone!
I really like posts like this because im still new enough that I really get a lot out of everyone's suggestions.

There is an awful lot more to becoming a luthier than building a guitar..... The bread and butter work for most "Pro Luthiers" isn't guitar building - it's repairs and setups... Building instruments is a great way to learn how to build instruments - but it's not really a good way to learn proper repair techniques used in musical instrument repair shops....

If you seriously want to get into stringed instrument repair - then start talking to local musical instrument repairmen.. Find out where they got their start and if there are any local community colleges that have a musical instrument repair program.... You may find that learning how to do good setups is a way in the door to some part time work at the local music shop.... That's where many folks start....

You will also find that there are a limited number of schools that teach instrument repair - but it's probably worthwhile to investigate going that route to speed up the learning curve a bunch...

Thanks