Official Luthiers Forum!

I am in need of a couple "very special" sets of Carpathian Spruce for builds I have coming up.

I have checked with RC and Allied - and they do not have anything that meets my needs at the present time.

Anybody out there have anything that would be top end quality (3A, 4A, Master) and would be willing to sell to me?

Thanks

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P A U L B U R N E R
Burner Guitars

Did you try old world tonewoods?

Thanks Brian - just shot them an email.

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P A U L B U R N E R
Burner Guitars

There is Carpathian spruce, and there's Carpathian spruce. One is (duh) spruce that comes from the Carpathians. The other is second growth with wide ring spacing that comes from (drum roll . . . .) the Carpathians. There was a lot of the latter around several years ago, and it is what a lot of people mean by Carpathian spruce. I can't help you with that. But I can give you a source for old growth Carpathian with tighter ring spacing. Thing is, it's just nice European spruce. Good, but not distinctive in the way the wide grain stuff is. So if someone is asking for Carpathian, they may mean the stuff I can't help you with.

This is clear, right? It's 1 am here and I'm starting to fade out.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Carpathian is just ordinary European spruce, Picea abies, put it in a pile with other Euro of equal grade and you can't tell the difference. German, Swiss, Italian, Austrian, Carpathian, makes no difference. Growing conditions, North/South face of mountain, growing altitude, processing, are all make a greater difference than supposed nationality.

Nationality is also something that can't be relied on. Under European Union law, nationality can be claimed according to where the last processing took place. For instance take a tree felled in Austria, move it over the border into Germany and process it into guitar sets, then those sets legally becomes German spruce. You could even grow the trees in Russia, bring them into an EU state, say Romania, process them into guitar sets and they can then be sold as Carpathian spruce, the last place of processing.

Golden rule, know your supplier, (Oh and your supplier's supplier).

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

There are some good sets of Carpathian spruce on Ebay right now. Or at least yesterday,

Gil, not finding those sets on ebay. However, I would rather purchase from some vendor I trust - or someone here on OLF that I could trust. Ebay seems to be a gamble for the quality I am searching for.

Thanks for the effort though - appreciated!

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P A U L B U R N E R
Burner Guitars

Yeah nice Carpathian is fine grained and looks just the same as all the other Euro. All this Red spruce likeness is BS, just because some fast growth wood has emerged here and there....

Now if you find some kick ass, very dense (.44, above Euro average) slightly wide (13 gpi) grained, very uniformly spaced German spruce, shoot an email to Rudolf Fuchs and ask what master tops he still has left from log 032.

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Build log

Ok guys, here's the deal.

I'm a new builder. I've built with Sitka, Redwood (reclaimed - from Dave Maize), Sinker Redwood (Zootman) and Carpathian Spruce (Zootman).

Of the guitars I've built I liked the ones topped with Carpathian Spruce the best. Just got the sound the "I" liked the most.

So - I posted this thread as the Zootman currently is out of stock of Carpathian (other than 2A) and I need to get started on a build soon.

I don't know where this Carpathian came from or its origin. I don't really care if it is really some Euro stuff, or a distant relative of bamboo. I like the sound based on my limited experience - and I'm looking for more of the same. That's all.

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P A U L B U R N E R
Burner Guitars

Paul: Try John at Oldworld Tonewood, I've gotten 2A tops from him that I was not disappointed in. A good axiom if your looking for tops for sound is to " Feel with your hands and listen with your ears". Listening with your EYES can sometimes lighten your wallet with less than the result you want in terms of quality.IE the Master and 3AAA are not always the best tops and 2AA are not always of lesser quality. The quest for visually top of the line tops can have you climbing the sslope of deminishing returns.Shane has excellant Lutz tops that do not break the bank and he falls in line with your thoughts of knowing the vender. Good luck in your quest.
Tom

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A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!

But just because it may be labelled as Carpathian, will be absolutely no guide as to whether it will be anything like the one Euro (carpathian) top you've used, unless you can guarantee that it comes from the same part of the same tree.

In my opinion you'd be better off asking a trusted supplier to supply you with a Euro top with the characteristics that you are after. Or, get Shane to let you have one of his superb Lutz tops, the closest thing to good Euro the Americas have to offer.

I only ever buy type designated spruce from the source, it is the only way to guarantee that it is what it claims. Otherwise the best you can say is that Euro is Euro, or maybe, if a long way down the supply chain from the source, that it's just spruce.

I'm sorry but that is the reality.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

I might have one for you, Paul. I picked it out of a stack at Allied in early 2004. I need to get it out of my stash and refresh my memory and take some pics, but I think it's pretty nice. I spent a while going through the stack at their warehouse to find one I really liked. It's wider grained and white-ish in color if that's what you're going for. I only have one, though, if you're after several sets from the same source, so let me know if it doesn't interest you.

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Jonathan Kendall, Siloam Springs AR

What about http://www.eurotonewood.com/ ?

Here is what I found. It's for a parlor sized guitar though...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... K:MEWAX:IT

Fillippo, I know, that is why I said 'the Americas', which includes all of the countries in the continent, rather than 'America' , which would just be the USA.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Just adding another plug for John at oldworldtonewood.com. I have built 5 mandolins and have two 2A Carpathian Spruce guitar tops from him, one is in a half finished guitar I am working on now. Very happy with all the wood I have got from John. Now, about this thing about Carpathian being no different from other European Spruce. I am well aware it is all the same species, but I have built around 60 mandolins from European Spruce from various sources, and there is something I hear from John's wood that is different, and I like what I hear. Now whether that is becasue of the growing conditions, genetics or processing or something else I have no idea (and don't particularly care), but it does sound different. It is not as pretty, nor is it such a delight to work with as the Spruce I have from Switzerland, but I will always go with the sound. John does have some very nice wood, and a few of his tops do come close to the Swiss Spruce in appearance, but if you want the best looking Spruce on the planet get the Swiss stuff. That also sounds very good, and I have used a fair bit of it, but I prefer John's wood becasue of the sound I get from it. Just my experience.

I got some good carpathian from Colonial tonewoods a little while back. From what I remember, there wasn't any listed on the website, but I called and they had some in stock.

Try these folks. Very good company.

http://www.internationalviolin.com/SearchByCategory.aspx?CategoryCode=125
Kevin

I recently bought from octopus.com, wood seems really nice, stiff, grade accurate, prompt dispatch, my questions were answered quickly, reasonable prices, deals international.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Sorry, http://www.octopus.com.tr/store/

EDIT - sorry though you wanted caucasian spruce

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Colin - I'm certainly no expert but I have to disagree with this statement. I have Carpathian spruce from several different suppliers and it all shares one thing in common...it is more opaque in appearance than any of the other European spruce I have, most of which comes from the Italian and Swiss Alps and has a more translucent appearance. The difference is subtle but noticeable and I believe I could distinguish the Carpathian tops from the others if they were shuffled into a stack.

It stands to reason, at least IMO, that if the wood differs in appearance it could also differ in other ways (e.g., tonal qualities).

All this is just my humble opinion, of course.

That's odd. I live in Romania. As a curiosity we have half of the Carpathians, a 500 miles long chain. The rest is in Ukraine and between Poland and Slokavia. I think the larger part of the spruce imported in the US is from Ukraine.
Anyway I have rescued several construction beams and got a few tops from another local luthier's stash.
This stuff I have is quite similar, and varies within the same limits as all the spruce I have from Switzerland, Austria, Germany and Italy. The only spruce I've seen that I could describe as translucent came from the Dolomites and has an unusually low density, which might account for it.

Now, on the other hand, I am almost certain I can guess Engelman from Euro, on a good day, if the samples are nicely surfaced.

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Build log

There are two different types of Carpathian that came to the US. Some with very wide grain, resembling some of the newest growth red spruce, but much lighter than red, and for the weight, very, very stiff. IMHO, this is the stuff you want to get.
The more recent Carpathian available, I have to agree, is indistinguishable from other Euro spruces.
Howard says the former is second growth, which would make sense: the trees obviously grew much faster in either plantations or heavily cleared areas. The latter is presumably "old(er)" growth, with grain count variation, usually fine to medium. Just as good as any common Italian or German spruce. And frankly, if I didn't know, I couldn't distinguish between this kind of Carpathian and my Italian and German tops.
That being said, not all Euro spruces are equal, it is laughable to compartmentalise them by country, but not so much by terrain. Alpine spruce, whereas German, Austrian, Swiss or Italian is a bit different from the stuff growing at lower altitudes and warmer climates.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

Yes, I would suspect that most of the US suppliers get their 'Carpathian' from the same European supplier, as my experience of 'Carpathian' Euro is the same as Alex's. It's just as variable as any other European spruce. Perhaps in Europe we get it from a wider range of sources, so see the variability.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Laurent, the kind of variation you're describing exists within a single species with great ease. I usually select my own tops at Rivolta, and that alone is an education in itself. It's all Euro spruce, all from the same part of italy, cut in the same year, one assumes roughly the same logging region.

But the variation is huge - variable density, wide grained to narrow, even grain, stiff to floppy, in every possible permutation. My preference is for lighter weight tops with high stiffness, and I don't particularly care how even the grain is. Compared to the Lutz and Sitka I have the wood's equally stiff but lighter, but there are plenty of pieces of wood with similar physical characteristics.

Bottom line: get a trusted vendor, tell them what you like/want from a piece a wood of the species you like the overall characteristics of.