Official Luthiers Forum!

Yeah, when you are not on top of your motor cycle, you are in deep trouble!

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

I have an antique Delta/Rockwell Homecraft tablesaw/jointer combo that I picked up on Craigslist for a song. It's an excellent tool, all cast iron, very precise fence, small footprint, and the 4" jointer is very handy for guitar building: neck blanks, bracing blanks, tops, backs etc. I built a torsion box for a router table on the right wing extension so I can use the fence. The tablesaw can take up to a 8 1/2" blade, they're easy to find. 99% of the time I have a 7 1/4" Freud Diablo in it anyway.
Direct drive tablesaws (such as most newer contractor saws) are to be avoided: I think they're very dangerous and imprecise.
As Howard mentioned, the table saw is the most dangerous tool in the shop (save for the chop or radial saw if you have one): I use it all the time, but I am ultra aware. I cut a bunch of different push blocks and zero clearance inserts, you need them. The most dangerous is cutting small parts without paying enough attention.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

Ok...since we talking the down side of machinery, I will say the only badge you don't wanna earn is your
Wood Workin Badge.

Me been pushing that 10 inch Atlas since 1967 and back in 2003 it finally bit me left thumb tip off.

Ya, most of it grew back, but me tellin you dudes...its one badge you just don't wanna earn.


blessings
Padma

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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I have an Inca I bought new in the 80's. I don't use my tablesaw a lot, but I would not trade my Inca for anything. No big deal to get any blade bored to 20mm. And I don't need a 10" blade for the work I do. I don't tilt the table very often, but when I do it's not that big a deal. This saw is small and super accurate. For my very small shop this saw is perfect. It's on wheels that raise and lower so the saw sits on it's own legs when in use. And when not being used it is parked against the wall. You can find them reasonably priced on both Craigs List and Ebay. Wendy

Paul, I am glad to hear you feel the need for a table/variety saw. There are 3 stationary power tools on the must have list for modern woodworking IMO, variety saw, jointer and band saw. From what I understand your needs to be I would seek out an older (no plastic wheels for rise or tilt) powermatic 66 or unisaw, left or right tilt is not an issue for guitar construction, retrofit with a Biesemeyer fence, the knockoff fences have limited or no adjustability to the t-square. If you have no luck on craigslist or similar, Nebraska Tool is a nice group to deal with, I bought an edge sander from them a few years ago and was treated honestly. Weight and cast iron are your friend when it come to stationary tools. If you had more space and I knew you had 3 phase power I would suggest an Oliver 232, perhaps the best variety saw ever made (particularly with a slider). A larger table with distance between the miter slots is a big plus. When you embrace making specialty sleds for your particular needs use the table size to your advantage for safety and precision. I attach a photo of my Oliver 88, an 18" behemoth, 2355 lbs of cast iron made in '56. 10 hp original motor not yet rebuilt, original bearings, I am the second owner. I equipped her with the 10' Biesemeyer not for panel processing (Holzher 1265 in background is our tool for that) but for various sleds to process large angle cuts, etc. Excuse my bloviating but I love tools and shops that work safely. T

I owned a General cabinet saw, and didn't much like it. It would be good for a sheet goods shop. I found it was a little too big and was made even worse with the beismeyer fence sticking out about 4 inches. It's a long way back to the blade, and to control through the cut.

I like tilting table saws, but obviously not for the same kind of work. They fit in my work as a router table might, and as a little device to use for certain jigged work. As opposed to the large wood eater. I just bought my Inca, the one with t Ihe mortise attachment for this kind of precision use, and some ripping.

Even second hand though, the Beaver type saw is not only a killer deal, but has all the advantages the Inca does not. Very smooth operation, no sticky aluminum, no hole drilling to use the blade, good smooth tiliting arbor, and it costs about 40 bucks. It also lacks what the Inca has: Splitter, light weight (but still light), very tight vertical blade control. I would call it a draw, with the beaver being about 1/10th the price.

Now the perfect Craigslist deal would be a Reinhard...

By the way, one FWW survey showed that the bandsaw was the most dangerous stationary tool. They have unlimited geometry, as the saying goes, not good news. But the real reason they seem to be dangerous is because people think they are safe. I don't feel that way, and they have been good to me for the most part, though I did notice the freehand stuff got a lot more scary after I got a powerful one.

The only thing I can really "Like" using a table saw for, is a fret sawing jig. Table saws are good for making cabinets and sawing 2X4's. Most table saws are just a skillsaw bolted under a cheap piece of tin. I've bought table saws at acutions for 20 bucks. Heavier the better, unless space an issue. They do make a big mess too.. I would rather spend my money on a nice smaller 12" bandsaw. And a bigger Re-saw bandsaw. Save the expensive table saws for cabinet makers. My 2 cents.

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Jason Moe
LaCrosse WI 54601

Nice saw. I'm partial to old Oliver machinery. But guitar making is not cabinet making.

I've learned from experience that used machinery is a bit of a crapshoot. You need to enjoy rebuilding it.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Some still photos of what you are talking about above would be nice.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Filippo:

You asked what was the danger of direct drive saws vs belt saws. As far as I know the belt drives will slip when the blade sticks or encounters an uncuttable object. The direct drive will burn up or break, possibly into flesh seeking fragments. The belt also helps to dampen vibration. That is not to say they are as fashionable as suspenders.

Danny R. Little

I have a Delta contractors saw that I have souped up a little (Inline pulleys and a link belt) and added a shark splitter and guard. That is my main saw and is a good saw for the money. You get alot of bang for your buck in that type of saw.Rigid looks nice as well. Grizzly has a contactors saw with a riving knife. If I were going to buy a new saw I would buy a Saw stop contactors model but that is about $1500 plus. To my mind you need to get into a saw of the contrator size before you can be assured that you will not get alot of run out in the arbor. Also you get a descent size motor. Someone suggested buying off craigslist. I have had great luck in the last year finding tools on Craiglist it is all in knowing what you want and keep on looking. If you are buying used you maybe can hold out for a better model. I have seen several unisaws listed in the last year in the $500-$700 range. Older craftsman saws are good say pre 1970 but I would stay away from the newer ones up to when they were made by Rigid. The thing I like about Rockwell/Delta is the parts are available because they didn't change much over a long period of time. I hope this all isn't confusing. The short answer is I would buy a contractors type saw. Good luck

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Mistakes are mandatory-learning from them is optional. http://www.opensourceluthiersupply.com

I notice a lot of you are singing the praises of the FREUD 7 1/4 In. Thin Kerf Diablo blade.

2 questions:
1. On Amazon they range from about 24 to 60t. Which one?
2. Is there any difference between table saw and circular saw blades?

"You asked what was the danger of direct drive saws vs belt saws. As far as I know the belt drives will slip when the blade sticks or encounters an uncuttable object."

I wouldn't count on that. At the low end of the spectrum like my Beaver saw with a 3/4" motor, you can stop the motor, and then sometimes hold it till the breaker pops. However, in general you would need to have a big piece of wood, for that to happen. No sign of the belt slipping though, and it is only held tight by the weight of the motor. On serious bigtime saws like my General 350 of olden days, the arbour supported a triple pulley and three belts, transferring the power of a 3 HP leeson. There wasn't any winning arguments with that saw.

One important safety tip, and pretty easy for luthiers to follow, is to use only dry, and dimensioned wood in a table saw. Or if not, then take the appropriate steps. where safety is concerned it is almost always possible to be safe, but you have to have that as an objective, and in many cases where table saws are in use, that is not the prime objective. I remember a pattern maker observing that none of his colleges had ever lost a finger, and he put it down to push sticks, etc... Even the full time luthier who chose to use a TS would not be behind the saw many hours, so there is no excuse to take shortcuts and get hurt.

Also, in general, I would not use a TS to cut a 2x4, that is precisely the kind of sometimes wet, sometimes, twisted, sometimes full of internal tensions, sometimes holding loose knots, wood that I would never take near a TS.

One thing, if your going to use a dado-stacked blades..For a wide cut. The smaller table saws don't have the width. I still don't think you need a tablesaw to make a musical instrument.

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Jason Moe
LaCrosse WI 54601

That's a fact. If I had the space in my house for one or if it was free to heat my garage I'm sure I would use it. Sadly, neither is the case. I get by really well with my bandsaw though. Maybe I should consider the table saw/bench idea. I never thought of that.

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Hutch

Get the heck off the couch and go build a guitar!!!!

Thanks!
Is this the one?
FREUD 7 1/4 In. Thin Kerf Diablo blade

60 tooth job kicks the 40 tooths behind, IMO.

It cuts 3 times as smooth.
It doesn't matter what I say here anyway.
Bye.

Appreciate the info guys.
I'll check 'em out
CHEERS

Alan,
How about some photos of sample cuts for a comparison? Are you talking about cuts in hardwood, plywood, laminate, Melamine? A 60 tooth blade should make smoother edge cuts...ie: less tear out/chipping of the edge than a 40 or 24 tooth blade when crosscutting. Smoothness of the end grain surface is another story and depends on how well your saw is tuned in addition to the design of the blade. If the blade is not square to the miter slots in the top no blade will crosscut smooth. Freud does a good job in the design of their tooth geometry and metal makeup for the specific job of the blade. It's up to us to decide which particular blade works best for the job we need it to do. Unfortunately there's not a perfect universal blade. I use a 150mm Tenyru 48 tooth 20mm arbor (Alternate Top, Alternate Face w/Raker tooth geometry) blade for crosscuts in my guided circular saw. It gives me the best combination of cut quality, life and value for all the crosscutting work I do in my shop and can be resharpened multiple times.

geez guys, happy holidays !

Alan likes the 60 tooth better, glad he found a blade that works for him and also happy to hear his opinion.

Todd apparently has both 40 and 60 tooth versions to compare, but uses the 40 tooth even if the 6o cuts a little smoother, neither is smooth enough.

no need to lecture or harass people for sharing their experiences.

FWIW, I am not a fan of the little diablos. Good in the circ for cutting down plywood for jigs and OK for cutting thin high value binding strips which are not stiff enough to leave a finished edge no matter what the blade. But in my opinion the little blade has too much vibration to leave a good surface at a quality 10" 80T ATB crosscut blade gives a better surface on crosscuts while a good 24T 10" thin kerf rip blade kills it in rips...

maybe it is just my crappy dewalt job site saw (but I got the same results on a powermatic 66 in my old shop)

Filippo, if you want to know how much better the 60T diablo is, it is only $20. Worst case is that it is a great blade for cutting down sheets of 1/4 baltic.

have fun,

-jd

I have glued directly off the tablesaw or with a couple of swipes with a scraper using the Diablo 40 tooth. It leaves a smooth, flat surface in my experience. I love this blade. My woodworkers only see minimal action and only for thicker stuff. I can't tell the difference in cut quality from the Diablo to the Woodworker blade.

I had this idea for a tablesaw/bench that would survive out of doors. I build boats and know how to put wood together so it stays out of doors. So it is all shielded with glass and epoxy. I have 5 engine lathes, so I can machine my own SS screws and arbors. I just like the idea of taking some woodwork out of doors during the nice weather, and having the saw dust out of doors. FWW had plans for an all wood table saw, that would adapt well to this kind of thing. But I so far haven't got to want this item badly enough...

I have never understood the repeated claims that the 40 tooth Diablo leaves a clean, finished surface. I have been through several of them on two different saws, using a set of stablizers. I can always see saw marks on the sides of the cut. These same saws leave surfaces that show no blade marks when I use a Forrest or good 10" Freud blade.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.