Official Luthiers Forum!

Are you guys that are using the Freud Diablo using a splitter on you zero clearance insert? I have not done so yet but am thinking maybe I should.

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

well, considering the Ryobi lawsuit this past year the correct answer would be - always, unless you have a riving knife, of course.

That being said, I don't for two reasons - first, I'm lazy and as a result, unsafe. Second, my TS came with a riving knife sized for a standard 1/8 inch blade kerf. Both diablo blades I use are thin kerf, so the riving knife actually puts a little tension into the cut by being slightly wider than the blade itself. And, because I'm lazy, I haven't made a substitute riving insert.

kick back is a real issue with larger boards, but can do some damage with smaller, thinner stock too. And it doesn't matter if you're using a cheapo blade or a woodworker 2, it's more about pinching the board at the back of the blade that causes it. So, I would say it's a good idea.

Although I'm not new to woodworking, I'm new to lutherie and this forum. I'm going on the assumption we are talking typical Freud Diablo woodworking blades and typical crosscut and rip cuts. If there's a special diablo blade used for lutherie that I'm not aware of, please excuse my noobie-ness.

just my $0.02

myk

You're excused Mike. A lot of us use the Freud 7 1/4 circular saw blade in the TS. Really thin kerf relative to the stock riving knives or a factory splitter.

No I don't use one.

Darrin

I'm also guilty of not using a splitter.Also guilty of using a zero clearance insert cut for normal thickness blade.Never use the blade guard.Never use the kick back protector.And have paid for my sins a few times.But I do try to be super aware when I push a piece of wood into the monster's teeth.Am certainly not a good example of a person who operates a table saw safely.
Tom

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A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!

Seems an appropriate thread to mention that I used to get quite a few 'kick back' incidents from my antiquated TS. Then I upgraded the motor from 240v .75HP 1450rpm to 2.5hp 2400rpm and just slightly increased the drive pulley diameter. The saw not only has much more HP, but the blade speed is also much higher.......Touch Wood>>>>......I have not had any kick back issues since the upgrade and the saw simply can't be bogged even on a straight 4" 'hard'wood rip using a 10" blade. This all may seem a bit OT but I really do think that maintaining good blade speed is more effective at reducing kick back than a riving knife could ever be. JM2C.

More OT..I must ask, the 7 1/4" Diablo blades that you guys are using, are they the 24 tooth 'framing' blades or the 40 tooth 'finishing' blades mentioned on the list at the Woodworkers.com site, or are they some specialised "Thin Kerf" 7 1/4" product not even mentioned on the list??

http://woodworker.com/diablo-7-14-x-24t-framing-blade-mssu-122-927.asp

I only ask because Mario speaks so well of the 7 1/4" Diablo "Thin Kerf" blade, but I have never seen any of the 7 1/4" blades described as "thin kerf" in the Freud product description, so it is a bit confusing. That said the uncertainty has not stopped me from using the 7 1/4" Diablo 24t construction blades and I have found them to be really good, but I do wonder if I am missing some specific product?

If someone here could please confirm the actual product number from the list at the above link or provide the unlisted alternative that is THE Diablo blade, it would remove all doubt for me and I bet a few others as well.

Cheers

Kim

Kim, relatively speeking, the diablo blade is a "thin kerf" blade. At .059" kerf ( for a 7 1/4" blade), you will be hard pressed to find a blade of equal kerf or less (with same diameter). That said, this does not mean that you will get a .059" kerf, it all depends on the accuracy of your saw setup and arbor shaft bearings, among many other things. I get a .062 kerf from a 7 1/4" ultra finsh diablo blade,,, easy thing to check. I like the finish blades since they have more teeth and give a smoother cut. I did not see the ultra finish blade in your attachment, but they are readily available in the States. But the regular finish blade would be fine.

As far as using a splitter, no, I don't use one due to the thinner kerf than splitter.

Chuck

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I use the 7 1/4" 40T with a zero clearance insert and no riving knife or splitter. Can't remember the last time I had a kickback. I always use a pushblock with a handle and have developed some habits over the years to minimize problems. If the board is over about 24" I'll set up a featherboard or two as well. I'm very aware of the potential for trouble with the table saw.

Way, wayyyyy back I was ripping some 2x4's into 2x2's and had one kickback. Fortunately I wasn't behind it. The board shot out the open door of the building I was working in and hit the door of MY truck. Left a a decent dent that I saw every day for as long as I had that truck

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I have to ask this, because the answer evades me.
Why are you guys using a circular saw blade in a table saw?

You can make your own out of 16-18 gauge steel, a hacksaw/jigsaw and a grinder. Lee Styron has posted splitter patterns and dimensions of most popular saws here:
http://www.leestyron.com/splitrkpats.php
Add a ratcheting handle and it's a 3 second mount/dismount operation. No excuses!
You can also get Lee to make you one. Special orders take a little longer.
http://www.leestyron.com/sharksplitter.php

Rusty, They're inexpensive, very well made and sharp and thin kerf. So far the best use I've found for them are ganged up to make linings or for cutting bindings. You get a better yield and a very clean cut.

how do you gang them up, and how many do you use ?

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It's this new idea from recent decades that everyone gets a participation award. - MUX

Hey thanks for the answer guys!

I gang up 3 blades. You could get something machined for a spacer but I use a set of blade stabilisers I have from Lee Valley. They are about the right thickness. You can tape together about 8 or so strips(don't kerf the taped side. I've heard itcan be a little time consuming to get the tape off). I use a sled and an index pin the thickness of the kerf, much like slotting a finger board. Use a block of wood to hold them flat while you're cutting. In an hour or two you'll have enough linings to make a few guitars.

Thanks folks, I'll continue without the splitter.

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Do what you want but I feel pretty strongly you need a splitter or a riving knife when using a thin kerf blade too. Just because some here aren't using one doesn't mean physics are somehow defeated.
I'll say a special prayer the spear of hardwood that gets kickedback doesn't hit you where it will hurt too bad or cause permanent damage to your dangly bits. I've had one trip to the ER from a 1/4" X 1/2" X 18" piece of Maple hitting me in the groin at 100mph on top of the Femoral artery.
I'll be happy to help you figure it out. Not very hard or expensive.

It is for that very reason that I have adopted the 'bull fighter' stance when using the TS. Which is to say I step to a side rather than offer up the gonads as a target....Oooow just the thought ....use a push stick and keep the one eyed trouser snake well clear I say.

Cheers

Kim

I use a splitter. Especially helpful for making binding, etc. Also a safety feature. I use a Micro-jig as it's offset is adjustable in .003" increments, & accommodates 1/8" and thin kerf blades . Nifty. Got mine at Woodcraft. Installation and use instruction video on woodcraft site.



Link to Woodcraft page http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2005067/29397/Micro-Jig-18-Kerf-SteelPRO-MJ-Splitter-Kit-Blue.aspx

The Diablo D0740R blade mentioned earlier in this thread leaves a kerf of .059" and is too small for a stock thin kerf MicroJig splitter. Here are the specs for the Thin Kerf MicroJig Splitter:
Model # SP-2TK PRO (Orange) - Thin Kerf For 10” Thin Kerf Saw Blade
Orange Splitter Thickness : 0.086” (±0.001”)
Kerf Range : 0.090” - 0.118” (2.29 - 3.0mm)

You will need to grind it down to a few thou narrower than the blade kerf for it to work correctly.

great advice - reminds me of my grandfather when he would say... with a glint in his eye... "boy, just remember, don't go commando when using your jointer. You're already circumcised, son." Ah... the the fond memories....

Ok enough joking around.
In addition to your groin area you need to worry about what happens to your hands when the board they were pushing against is snatched away. Most tablesaw hand and finger injuries involve kickback and many happen even when push blocks and push sticks are being used.
Here's a very good article available free from Marc Adams via Popular Woodworking everyone with a tablesaw should read.
http://www.popularwoodworking.com/article/kickback/

Riving knifes and splitters are very good ideas. Regardless, using one or the other does not excuse sloppy technique. I don't know about you guys but I haven't stood behind a blade while ripping for over 30 yrs for exactly the reasons already stated. As far as the hands go, if you're putting your hands and fingers in areas where a kickback or other tablesaw event can get to them then you just aren't doing it right. I have a whole selection of push blocks and featherboards I've made to make sure my parts are out of the way. If something shoots out of my saw it won't hit me and it won't take any of my parts with it. Doesn't mean an accident is impossible but it is a whole lot less likely.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Thanks for the link. It is a good read.

Ed