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I'm admittedly still in my amateur stage, mainly building for friends at cost in order to build up my own experience. One of my potential "customers" let slip that he would really be interested in building a guitar himself. He did this indirectly (to his wife or mine - either way the loop was completed), and the desire was expressed along with the admission that he had no real desire to build up a shop or do the project multiple times. At any rate, I bit, and offered him the opportunity to build his guitar in my shop under supervision.

My question - I've considered simply supervising him in his own build, or the alternative of building one in parallel so that he has more of a see and do sort of experience. I'm wondering what you think is the most effective method. My own experience in a luthier's shop was more like the first - here's the task, go at it. As a professional lecturer, I'm somewhat more inclined to the show and do option, though. Do you think there are pedagogical advantages to either approach? I'm open to either one.

The guitar will be a classical, Spanish heel, etc.

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

Depends on the guy's personality. Does he want a teacher, or just access to the tools? He might be happier learning from books and web sites (this one, for instance ) and just building the thing, staying out of your way aside from occasional questions if he's not sure how to do something. Or maybe he'd rather have more hand-holding and take it one step at a time, with you to make sure he doesn't do anything stupid because of not fully plotting out the built process up-front.

First of all, make sure he has a book. Cumpiano&Natelson, Bogdanovich, whatever, to get a run-through of everything and make sure he even wants to do it. Then just hang out, chat about things, maybe have him come to your shop and watch you work. By then it should be a lot easier to judge what would be the ideal level of assistance to give him.

If you do a parallel build with him, make sure you have a second build going for yourself as well. You'll probably be faster, so you don't want to pressure him to keep up, or sit idle waiting for him. Seems like a pretty good approach, especially if it's your natural teaching style. Only thing I'd worry about is showing him up too much. The first one's never going to be perfect, so you need to make sure he keeps the mindset that it can still be great even if it's not quite as flawless looking as yours. I love my first, flaws and all

I recently started taking classical guitar making lessons from a local luthier. He has me do almost everything while watching, but sometimes comes he comes behind me and "fixes" ^cough my work. A great guy, positive attitude, always encouraging. I really did not have so much interest in building a classical (or anything normal for that matter) but I figured he could help me fill in the gaps since I have mostly been flailing around on my own. So I have used a plane to join the top, and cut a rosette channel now.

Having his attention, and having him salvage my mistakes is nice.

Jim --

I find myself in the exact same boat, as I'm about to embark on a parallel build with a fellow from over the mountain in Kingsport, TN. He has some past experience, having worked in the National Guitar factory for some time back in the 80's, but has no shop or tools. This is actually a collaborative project with James Condino overseeing neck construction and setup after we complete the box. For all of James' experience, we agreed that it might be advantageous for John to also work with an intermediate builder such as myself, if for no other reason that many of my screw-ups are still fairly fresh in my mind. The ol' "learn from my mistakes" approach. I'm only halfway joking...

Anyway, I'm really looking forward to it, as I've always learned a ton about my own process from every teaching situation I've gotten myself into. I'm hoping the parallel build approach works as well in application as I'm envisioning it. Our first session is Wednesday, so I'll report back with details in a few days. Wish me luck!

Ken

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Mountain Song Guitars www.mountainsongguitars.com

Ken,

It would be great to hear how it goes, I look forward to it.

Thanks to everyone who has replied. I realize, after reviewing my own experience starting out (Martin kit with no supervision or experience, and then a one week course in a luthier's shop where the method was a combination of tell with occasional show and tell),
that parallel building is a lot more structure than I ever saw. One of my fears is that I would have the tendency to leap into the fray and take over a task if there was a lot of hesitation or initial difficulty. The parallel build situation feels to me like a chance to give the student a lot of information directly but still givse me the chance to keep my hands out of what they are doing.

Good points on books/background materials. I have a good chunk of it myself and will start feeding him - it is going to be several weeks before my calendar is clear enough to embark on this.

Jim

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

I had a similar experience years ago when a young kid wanted to learn from me, I taught him that it was better to learn from himself but was always there when he needed to ask a question. If I knew he was doing something wrong then I'd guide his way, and of course showed him the shortcuts and tricks of the trade. I didn't really want his first guitar to come out perfect like it was his 50th. It's like when a kid wins the science fair because his dad who is an engineer built the winning machine. The guitar came out very nice, structurally sound, good tone, unique looking and with cosmetic flaws.

A lot will come out during your conversations about how to proceed. You'll need to figure out his learning style and working methods, as well as entry level experience...but you already know this.

Androgogically speaking, I would set this up as a parallel build. Your build doesn't have to be exactly like his, but something that you do with similar steps executed at similar times. It can even be a build that you only work on when he is over.

Good luck!

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Expectation is the source of all misery; comparison the thief of joy.
http://redrivercanoe.ca/

I just completed a build with a friend who lurks on this site, he came to my shop and built under my supervision and instruction. It is important to be open to change as the build progresses. Answer questions as well as you can and try to be supportive and help correct mistakes. We did a lot of chatting about guitars while working and the great part was the explaining to him helped me expand my skills. The guitar is basically what he wanted to build and we worked together on some of the trim ideas. He did a few things against my advice and they came out fine though some needed more effort on his part than necessary. It is a guitar he can be proud of and should sound good as the voicing is quite similar to my builds which have a good sound in the opinion of those who play them.

The bottom line is we both learned from the experience and I would take another student if asked, but would probably charge a little for my time and shop supplies.

Fred

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Fred Tellier
http://www.fetellierguitars.com
Facebook page http://www.facebook.com/pages/FE-Tellier-Guitars/163451547003866

I am paying $40/hr and it is worth every penny to me.

It’s a great idea to build in parallel. However, I would caution that you don’t attempt anything that requires your total attention toward the instrument you are building while your student is working on their instrument. You should keep to anything that can be dropped at a moment’s notice. I would also suggest that you set-up a preferred time and duration each week, a schedule that fits you both. I have found a 3 hour shop time per week works well. A dedicated time and duration avoids any unpleasant surprises of “oh you’re here or it’s getting late” or "Sorry but... "etc.

Have fun.

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Michael Lloyd

“I was born to ignorance, yes, and lesser poverties ...
I was born to privilege that I did not see ... I didn’t know it, but my way was paved” – John Gorka

Hello since the subject is being discussed sorry if its slightly off topic.
I might add that ive been reading similar posts that have being discussed here before

Im (might as well be a student) currently tooling up at the moment
and theirs a luthier that lives in town
Theirs only another few tools that i need to build/buy before i give him a call and
since theirs no point of starting a build and stopping ...then going up to this guy half tooled
I dont want him thinking im going to use his tools and .... off

I was just wondering on how those students went about contacting you
espically if it was out of the blue, through word of mouth or something
did any aspiring builders ever go up to you guys just to look at your place ?

(mabye to buy a radius dish if you were willing to make one ....
and trade you some preped bone nut and saddle blanks for a few questions

I would check the limits of your homeowner's liability insurance to see what it covers and what it doesn't.
A shop accident involving a student has, seems to me, potentially dire consequnces if that person decided to sue you.
The only way I would ever instruct anyone in guitar building would be with essentially a "kit" assembly project with
no power tool actvity whatsoever.

I'm in a similar situation and have some feedback for you. I wanted to build a guitar for a close friend. In the process of planning it together, he thought he'd like to come watch and learn. Then he decided he wanted to help. Finally, he decided he wanted to do it. I'm not experienced enough to "teach" anyone this stuff, but I can show him what to do.

So, I've noticed a few things. First of all, it takes a long time. Almost everything takes him longer than it takes me. Plus, while I can work any day I've got time, he is here once a week, and between the two of us we often have other things that get in the way. This is certainly a long term project.

Second, have something to do. Watching someone sand rims with a dish is boring...A parallel build is good, but unless you have double the tools, you need to be a day or two ahead. I've been working on my sharpening and my lathe skills. If you have a lot of students, it may be different, but with just one, you've got a lot of wait time. On this same line, you need to know your student. Some may want you to sit and talk to them while they work. Greg prefers quiet, so I can work on other jobs around the shop.

Third, I'll repeat the insurance thing. If I had someone using my shop for hire, I'd for certain call my insurance guy first.

And finally, plan out your days. Alone, I often go down and work for an hour and leave glue to dry over night. Think about order of operations. Your student has limited time in designated chunks. They don't want to go mow the lawn while their linings are drying. Know what's next so you can organize around it. If you are crowded, like me, save the glue ups for the end of a session.

I'm really enjoying helping Greg, and I'm learning a ton myself. It takes a long time and occupies a significant portion of my shop. I did not realize how much it would impact my other projects, but I'm certainly glad I did it and am happy with how it's working out.

Mike

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Mike Lindstrom

David and Mike,

Thanks for the heads up on insurance issues. I hadn't really thought about that. My "student" is a social acquaintance who I'm sure has good or better medical insurance than I do, but that of course is possibly meaningless in this day and age.

I'll consider all this great feedback I have gotten and talk it over with Chris (the student). Time issues are somewhat not a factor - I'm a hobbyist, and the guitar I would have built during this time would be Chris's, so in a way I'm getting an extra guitar out, even if much more slowly. I also have enough other tasks lying about (I need to build a neck jig for steel strings) that slow progress wouldn't be a horrible hindrance.

Thanks guys.

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

You should post some pics Fred. This was the scraping-nightmare guitar right?

I did not take any but the Builder Tim who you met at Bluefish took quite a few and he lurks on the forum but seldom posts, I will get him to post a few of the completed guitar. It is in its second week of lacquer curing and should be ready to play by Christmas if he has no issues sanding and buffing.

Fred

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Fred Tellier
http://www.fetellierguitars.com
Facebook page http://www.facebook.com/pages/FE-Tellier-Guitars/163451547003866

Don't let the the student or his family's relationship to you or his great medical insurance coverage lead you to believe a shop injury on your property wouldn't expose you to liability. Even if the student wouldn't dream of suing you, his great medical insurance policy will contain a provision giving the insurance company the right to look to you for reimbursement of medical expenses it paid and such if arguable grounds for your liability exist. Regardless, have the student, or his guardians if a minor, sign a complete and detailed waiver and release of liability. It's not a guarantee of protection, but that, a talk with your insurance agent, and a personal in-depth review of your homeowner's policy would make for a good start.

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Aaron Craig

Fred was very generous in allowing me to come by and sit in and witness the work that he was doing. He almost immediately suggested that I get some materials and supplies and get started on one, which was more than I ever expected. What he, I'm quite sure, never expected, was that I would practically move into his home. Talk about wearing out your welcome. I was very lucky in him not only being willing to have me partake, but having crossed paths with a dude that knows how to build a dang fine guitar. The experience that I have gained, or skills that I have begun to learn, is/are invaluable to me on many levels. This is something that I have wanted to try for 20 years, and having just turned 40, and having my first project so very near completion is an incredible thrill for me. The mistakes that I have made have been minor, in my opinion, as Fred always seems to have a solution, which can take a considerable amount of time and effort in the fixing, but I am just happy to be a part of this. Therefore, I don't mind. I spent the last week in Nashville, and spent a good amount of time at Gruhns Guitars. Having gone through the process of building from scratch, the production line guitars, no matter how nice or expensive, sort of lose their lustre. I am sure that you all out there understand where I am coming from. I have 2 boys now, and my older, the 3 year old has asked if I will help him build a guitar one day. What could possibly be any cooler than that? As I said before, this is an experience that I have appreciated on many levels. I've even started to appreciate Fred's stodgy sense of humor. This is the part where people use the phrase "once you get past his rough exterior......" Anyway, those of you out there who are sharing your experience and your knowledge, bravo and kudos to you. You are helping to revive an art that was well on it's way to being something left almost solely to machinery. Shelts

I'll try to get some photos up once I figure it out. Not sure if I'm better with a computer or a chisel. Fred would probably have an answer for that. Probably goes under the heading of don't ask the question when you are afraid to hear the answer..... Also, there may be a problem viewing the photos caused by the excessive glare emitted from my bald dome.
Shelts