Official Luthiers Forum!

Thanks Dave and Todd,

The woodmaster 718 is exactly what I was looking for!

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Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

I have the Woodmaster 2675 drum sander. I'd suggest sticking with the dedicated drum sander unless you have a compelling reason to get the planer that converts to a drum sander.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

I agree with Todd about buying the dedicated Woodmaster sander if you only need sanding applications. However, I prep a lot of my own wood from billets or planks and thus the planer is mandatory for me. I can't afford both. If only I had the foresight when I was young to choose wealthier parents, which I did not (a common mistake)...

Dave

With the 2675, you have to use a sled. I assume it's not an issue for dead flat tops or backs, but how do you manage when they are twisted and curved? How do you secure them to the sled?

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Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

This video may help:
http://www.finewoodworking.com/Workshop/WorkshopArticle.aspx?id=5245

Well thanks but I'm not sure it helps me. I watch the video and I can't imaging using such a sled to run a .100" top through a drum sander. There is the 'none skid' material he's talking about that looks interesting. Would a sled covered with such material be good ehough to hold a top or back in place by friction only?

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Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

The sander (and planer) has rollers placing pressure on the wood being sanded and these press the board against the sled. Everything goes through like a sandwich. The wedges/shims keep a board needing face jointed from deflecting under the roller pressure, causing an uneven surface when the board springs back to position. The nonstick keep the wedges from moving, not the board. You can make a simpler version of this by placing a small ledge strip at the leading end of a piece of MDF or Melamine shelving as a buddy of mine does here and use wedges or shims for stock needing to be face jointed flat:





For a board already face jointed and flat, just use a a flat piece of MDF or Melamine with a ledge ~1/32-1/16 proud of the leading end to meet your minimum height restriction. This small ledge will keep the board from skewing on the slick Melamine.

If you get one of the Oscillating Belt Sanders, this probably won't work very well.

???

I never use a sled (or backing board, or whatever you want to call it) with my 2675 for sanding tops, backs, or sides. I have sanded material down to .060" without a backing board with no issues. The drum might contact the conveyor belt a tiny bit now and then when going that thin, but that hasn't cause any problems.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Thanks for the clear explanations Tarhead. But I beleive I didn't express myself clearly. When I'm talking about a top that is not flat, I don't mean like the board from your pictures where you will plane off the bumps. I'm talking about a top (or back, or side for that matter) that is wabbly, if I may say so. When it naturally curves or twist, once it is thined down (or being thined down). When you can press it flat with your hand but it will curve right back up when you release the pressure. I was wondering how you hold such tops on a sled ar backing board.

But that doesn't seem to be an issue based on Todd's statement:


Great then! It seemed I somehow misread the specs of the 2675 and thaught it couldn't handle boards under 1/8".

That resolves my problem! Thanks!

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Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

Specs shmecks! They're not guitar makers! It works fine.

As always, the biggest key to success is taking light passes. And a good dust collector. Dust collection with drum sanders is not just about keeping your shop air clean, it's about keeping the abrasive from clogging. The Woodmaster excels in this regard as long as you have an adequate dust collector hooked up to it.

If you get yourself a Woodmaster 2675 and have any questions come up, fell free to give me a shout. The company also has EXCELLENT customer service, and, in these hard economic times, they will give you a great deal - probably free freight along with a deep discount and a bunch of free rolls of abrasive. They will probably give you an even better deal than they advertise if you ask nicely (they did for me!).

The Woodmaster is a great machine.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Thanks a lot for the info Todd!

I will most certainly ask you a tip or two, but probably not soon. I'm planing for a new shop which should happen sometime at the end of next year.

Again, thank you for everything!

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Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

Here is a photo of the various attachments for the Woodmaster 718.
Planer blade is on the machine.
In the foreground is the sander, 4 rip saws, molder with cutting blade, and spare rubber roller....
Second photo gives an open view of the mechanics of the machine.

Dave

I used to own the 10-20, wish I had room for it again...nice for doing small stuff. I even did harp guitar tops with it. I now have the 22-44 which when properly set up, is quite stable. I have a link to a Joe Woodworker site in the the toot section. If I had to choose, I would go for the bigger one.

Mine came with the open stand. I had a set of those Jet casters. So I used them. Because the machine is SO heavy, the wheels started to warp the stamped steel mount points. I took it apart and attached a homemade iron angle base, then remounted the wheels. All is well now.

Mike

The larger sanders certainly have their advantages but, if you have a small shop like I do, the 10-20 will do your guitar related tasks just fine and still fit in a corner somewhere. I built a small cabinet on casters for mine and park it out of the way when I don't need it.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

For those of you wit the 10-20, do you find that joining is a little bit more trouble? (as you must join the top and back after sanding it to the near proper thickness, which gives you less room for error).

To answer the OP question better, get what you can afford and have room for. The bottom of the list (price wise) is the 10-20. But being the bottom does not mean it is less quality. Its a very good machine. The other thing is to be patient. They come up for sale around here from time to time (as well as saw mill creek, woodnet.net to name a few). Sometimes, even craigslist. You should be able to pick one up used for under $400, maybe $450.

Even when I had the 10-20, I thicknessed jointed tops (harp tops!!). Gluing thin boards is hard and frustrating. Never mind adding a backstrip. There are a lot of tips and tricks you will pick up along the way, but do check that link in the toots forum for how to align a drum sander. BTW, the three models (10-20, 16-32, 22-44) are all slightly different... so you have to think about that when leveling the drum.

Mike

Don't have to do that and wouldn't want to. I join at around 0.125" then sand to final thickness. You just sand one side then flip it around and sand the other. It's pretty easy to adjust the sander so the open end is about 0.005" higher than the closed end. Since I don't use the thickness sander for finish sanding I'm still using the ROS to sand everything to 220 before assembly. It works out just fine and I honestly don't care if there is a few thou variation in thickness between the middle and the edges.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Not at all.
I just get the 2 boards flat indiviually first, joint tops normally about 3 - 4 mm thick depending on stiffness, then down to final thickness I want - no problems.
I joint on a flat board with glossy paper under the two halves, and press the 2 halves together with cams, not too tight, put a couple of heavish things (pieces of paving slabs normally) on top of a caul at the seam (again with glossy paper) to keep them in line.
Paper peels off (titebond), a scraper offs the excess glue, then 10-20 the top.. finish with scraper and hand sand with a block.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Mike, I just aligned the drum on my 10-20, and it was really easy to get a near perfect alignment using the drum alignment knob. Is that a new feature, or has the 10-20 always been easy to align? I faced this task with a certain amount of dread, as I've read many posts that it is a tough and frustrating job, but at least for the 10-20 it is simple.
Mike

Tell us a bit about your thoughts on the velcro backed sand paper. I currently have a 16/32 and rather like the clip method of attaching the sandpaper strips as well as having nothing between the paper and the drum. In my dreams though I have a 24" sander and who knows....maybe someday.

My concerns in particular would be the cost of the velcro backed paper, choice in paper, speed in changing strips and if the "softness" of the velcro attachment has any negatives in the performance of the sanding.

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

Mike, how did u align it? They are all easy to align once you understand the process. I like the idea about keeping the free end 0.005" high. Makes a lot if sense.

Please see my post about the jet black Friday sale. Drum sanders are on sale !!!!

I got a buttload of free abrasive as part of the deal when I bought the Woodmaster. It'll take me a long time to go through it. The abrasive lasts a long time: very little clogging with this machine; much larger surface area on the drum (large diameter and long drum) means a lot more abrasive surface to wear out.

I was never a big fan of the clip method. The velcro system works great. I haven't changed the abrasive wrap enough times to speak with any real authority, but I'm sure that with a little practice, I'll be able to easily change the abrasive at least as quickly as I could with the clip system. One of the cool things about the velcro system is that, after you wrap the abrasive on the drum, you wrap one end in strapping tape to secure it, but you leave the other end untaped. Due to the direction of drum rotation, the abrasive wrap will naturally tighten itself on the drum, even as the paper may stretch a bit, so there's never any need to re-wrap it to tighten it up.

As far as the "softness" of the velcro is concerned, I have no issues with this whatsoever. The performance/accuracy is excellent. The performance of this machine absolutely blows my old 10-20 out of the water in every respect. It is in a completely different league.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Matthew lives over here in the UK, so the only small-user machines available for anything like a reasonable price are the Jet 10/20, 16/32 etc. So realistically these are the only choices available to a UK guitar builder, even these are serious buys with the 10/20 coming in at about $900 and the 16/32 at $1200. I've had both and found I could get better accuracy with the smaller machine, and I have to say that if I had to buy another, I'd get the same again.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Hey Todd
I just learned something from you.
I have always taped both ends of the drum.
I will now untape the trailing edge.
Thanks

Dave

I took the sandpaper off the drum, and used a thickness gage switching it between outboard and inboard while adjusting the drum alignment knob after loosening the two lockdown screws. I then alternately tightened each lockdown screw a little until both were secure. I checked the alignment by sanding a large flat piece of wood, and it sanded evenly and left no ridge when reversing it and sanding the portion larger than the 10 could get going one direction. I had planned on needing to tweak it to get the free end slightly high (I agree with you there), but I got lucky, and either hit it dead level, or maybe the outboard end is a few thou high. Anyway, as it sits, there is no problem sanding pieces wider than 10 inches with no resulting mismatch,
Mike