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Does anyone have experience with this glue?
http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/thirdproducts.asp?CategoryName=Adhesives&NameProdHeader=Smith+All+Wood+Epoxy
I used it for the first time this morning to glue a FB to a neck and it seemed VERY thick right out of the bottle. I could hardly squeeze hard enough to get it out. After mixing, it was still very thick. It was about 65 degrees in the shop this morning, but that doesn't seem cold enough to make the glue that thick. I just received it from LMI yesterday so it's not old. My concern is that it may not cure as hard as I'd like to keep from damping neck vibration. Any tips for using (or not using) this glue are much appreciated.

Chuck

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"To live a creative life, we must lose our fear of being wrong"
- Joseph Chilton Pearce

I'd call LMI and ask if this is normal for this adhesive. They would know, and would be able to tell you if it will be o.k. or not. Doesn't sound right to me, though. But if i could get a milk shake like that, I'd be a happy man.

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Mike

The only thing nescessary for evil to thrive is for good men to do nothing.

Chuck, I have been using Smiths all wood epoxy for a couple years and really like it. It does seem thick and doesn't like to come out of the bottle, but for fretboards I really like it. It does take overnight to cure though, but that's not a problem for me.

I always sread a thin layer of the extra on a scrap to make sure it cures hard, I do this with all epoxys.

Chuck

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Chuck, you can warm the bottles in some warm water prior to using it, that'll make it easier to squeeze and mix.
Epoxies for adhesive applications like this are typically viscous.

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

Chuck,
This is normal for the "All Wood Epoxy". When it is that cold, it is going to be very thick. The advantage with this glue is that you don't have to add any thickeners. Also, you will want to wet each piece for about 20 minutes before you use. And lastly, don't use too much clamping pressure -- just enough to hold these pieces together firmly.

The "All Wood Epoxy" is a phenomenal glue.

I really like Smiths Allwood, its a great epoxy that cures nice and hard, perfect for all kinds of stuff. Cannot comment on the thickness issue though cause I don't think it has been as low as 65f here during the day for a very long time.

Cheers

Kim

Kim, didn't you have a near death experience with epoxy?
Are you still using it mate?

Steve

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From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

Tis true Steve, as far as ones health is concerned epoxy is horrible stuff...I used it for many years without a single problem. Then all of a sudden 'months' and 'months' of problems, really, really bad problems. Lost all the skin on both arms and legs and needed extensive treatment with steroids to stop my body fro destroying itself...nasty, nasty stuff and there is nothing else like it. That's the problem, there is nothing else like it so I still use the stuff when I need to because it is just too valuable to loose from the tool box. But these days when I use epoxy, I look kind of like this guy.



Only I also have a full dual cartridge mask on as well. The look kind of grows on you after a while so I have taken to wearing the get up when I go out to dinner as well. Nice thing is that people now throw money at me when I walk down the street...helps pay for the .

Cheers

Kim

Thanks for the replies. Checking it this morning, it has cured VERY hard and I'm sure it will be fine. I think I've found a new glue!

Chuck

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"To live a creative life, we must lose our fear of being wrong"
- Joseph Chilton Pearce

Now that's devotion to one's craft.
Me hat's off to ya mate.
Also, glad you're doing better now!

Steve

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From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

I had some serious problems with that glue!! I used it on about ten guitars to glue ebony finger boards to mahogany necks. All seemed well and good until about a year after the guitars were completed. After 10 to 12 months the lacquer along the neck/fingerboard joint line developed hundreds of tiny white bubbles. It looked and felt terrible. I took some of the guitars back on warranty and refinished the necks.... 10 to 12 months later the bubbles reappeared. The only was I was able to fix the problem was to replace the necks. I switched back to using Titebond for my fingerboards and never had the problem again. The lacquer, bye the way, was McFaddens gloss. I have used lots of other epoxies under lacquer without any problems, so I'm pretty sure the culprit was the formulation of the epoxy.

Mark

I have been using that epoxy as the primary glue on my mandolins for more than a decade, hundreds of mandolins, and have not had problems with it with waterborne finishes. I use it to glue up rims, glue tops and backs together and to the rims, glue on necks, fingerboards, headstock overlays, etc. I also use it, following the Teeter method, to install frets. I like the slow cure and long open time, the gap-filling properties, the strength and stability. The few times I have had to undo something like a fingerboard, I find it breaks down with heat, and I can take off a fingerboard without damaging inlays or binding.

I've been using this for FB/neck joints and often for laminated neck glue-ups... probably going back 8 or ten years. I haven't seen anything like Mark describes... although this is more than a little unsettling. I hope it's some other anomaly and not the glue.
I don't prescribe to the idea that I often hear about not using much clamping pressure. I clamp as hard as I can... I use as many 4 inch C-clamps as I can can fit onto the piece for the glue-ups. I've had good success with both planed and sanded joints.

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"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man.” -Heraclitus of Ephesus

Mark,
That sounds like inability of the sealer to do its job. It is quite possible that the formulation they were using at the time caused some trouble. I have used All Wood Epoxy for the past 3 years or so on everything from rosettes to back centerstrips and always on the fingerboard joint. Never had a single problem. However, recently I had some trouble with a Bocote back/side set with bubbles as you describe. The problem was the sealer not drying over
one or two very oily grain lines.

I'd be curious to hear whether anyone else has had trouble with McFadden's lacquer and this glue. If so, then this is something we should let LMI know in hopes to help others avoid a costly repair. Then they could at least post a disclaimer on their site.

There are very specific instructions about not using solvents on the glue joint before or immediately after glue-up with it. Could that be something you overlooked?http://www.smithandcompany.org/TropicalHardwoodEpoxy/UsingTrop.html

I had the identical problem as Mark, at the identical place. Ugghhh....
However, it was when I used a no-name brand epoxy.
After that I switched over to Smith's All Wood, and have never had the problem again.
Perhaps Mark's batch was slightly off? Or old? Does epoxy have an expiration date?

Steve

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From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

To me this is starting to sound more like epoxy amine blush which is a problem associated with environmental conditions during mix and curing such as poor air circulation which can lead to a buildup of carbon dioxide from the users own breath, rather than an issue with any specific brand of epoxy product. Most all epoxies are amine (amino acid) cured, so all have the potential to blush if conditions are right.

Google "Epoxy Amine Blush" or "Epoxy Amine Bloom" for more information.

Cheers

Kim

I'd better not use it because my breath is so bad.

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"Preoccupation with an effect gives it power and enhances the error"
from "Your Owner's Manual" by Burt Hotchkiss.

Epoxy is not thinners based. There is nothing to "gas off" in the curing process.

I will stick with the amine blush theory. Sanding does not remove the amine excretion. Abrasives will only serve to work the thin oily residue, which can be very difficult to detect without very close examination, back into the surface of the epoxy where it can cause issues with the finish. If this is happening only on the glue line, then it is difficult for me see it could be anything but epoxy amine blush.

I understand that amine blush is usually associated with causing problems for the curing of oil based finishes that need to polymerize in order to harden, but I would imagine that the physical properties of amine residue, being a 'salt based' oily substance like a silicone, would reek havoc with any finish if it were present in high enough concentration. Whilst the glue line of a fretboard is thin, it is also very deep when viewed from that perspective, so I would imagine that there is enough epoxy in that joint to cause an on going issue even if one were to sand and refinish.

For anyone choosing to use epoxy in lutherie, I think an investment in time learning about amine blush will pay dividend in the long run.

Cheers

Kim

I am concerned about amine blush, since soon I expect to try Z-poxy fill for the first time.

Some practical suggestions for eliminating it can be found here, particularly in the final pages:

http://www.huntsman.com/performance_pro ... Resins.pdf

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Tim Allen
"Never hurry, never rest."

I also have a guitar that was filled with epoxy, along the neck up by the heel it has developed greyish/bubbled pores. I haven't been quite sure what to make of it, so hearing others with similar issues is interesting. The guitar was probably 3-4 years old before it developed the bubbles. This is a personal guitar so I live with it, but I don't fill with epoxy anymore. The rest of the guitar looks great, no bubbles, EIR back and sides.

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

I think the single most effective precaution both in relation to avoiding amine blush and the adverse effects that epoxy can have on your health, is good ventilation. If you can, wait to undertake any operation that involves using epoxy until the humidity is low and then work outside. If you must work inside, make sure you have a fan pulling fresh air in and blowing the carbon dioxide and moisture from your breath away from the work piece, and more importantly, blowing the fumes of the epoxy away from your exposed skin.

Cheers

Kim

Thanks for the information on amine blush, guys.

Kind of ironic that the cure for amine blush is to wash off with water which is what the users are trying to avoid by using epoxy in the first place.
As Kim said you can't sand it off it will only drive it into the wood. You need to wash off with water first.
L.

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Cut to size.....Beat to fit.....Paint to match.

Yes it is kind of ironic Link, I guess the real answer is to be aware of amine blush and what causes it.

It seems many who use epoxy have not heard of amine blush, or if they have, assume it is not something they need concern themselves with as it has never happened in their shop to this point despite using epoxy for years.....To think that way is a gamble IMO. Whilst most of us 'have' used epoxy successfully for years without issue, it is fair to say that use was primarily as an adhesive. Amine blush does not affect bond strength so it is also fair to say that even if you had encountered amine blush in the past, you probably did not notice because in that situation it is not a problem.

On the other hand it is only quite recently that many of us have started to use epoxy products as a fill, in that application, amine blush can be a very big problem. When post are made on this forum and others about finish problems, it is interesting to read some of the suggestions put forward as to what the cause may be. Everything from old product, bad batch, wrong method etc, etc..all come up each time, and indeed the issues could be one, or a combination of those things, but despite the growing use of epoxy 'under' the finish within this craft, it is very rare to see anyone mention epoxy amine blush as a possible cause. But more and more, as I read about fuzziness developing on Truoil after a few month curing, french polish going dull and sticky, glue lines raising under the finish that just keep lifting no matter how many times you sand flat and re-polish etc, etc, I can't help but think we are going to see a lot more of this sort of stuff until folks acknowledge amine blush and take steps to eliminate it from the equation.

What I am saying here is that fore warned is fore armed and if one understands amine blush they can begin to remove or reduce those elements which are responsible for causing it from the working environment. I truly wish I had heard of amine blush myself 'prior' to developing my now infamous skin reaction to epoxy, for it was not understanding which had caused me to repeatedly expose myself to epoxy as I sanded and reapplied zpoxy in an effort to remove fisheye that was forming in the wet epoxy that I now know was caused by amine blush. At the time I was thinking the fisheye was caused by some sort of contamination like silicone in the rosewood. I had asked advice but it seemed noone had heard of amine blush. So with the assumption being it was a silicone contamination, it was suggested I wash the surface with thinners, something that would 'bite' into the surface of the epoxy, and then sand, wash again and repeat the process until the fisheye was gone.....the rest is history, as is my bodies tolerance to the irritants within epoxy.

Anyhow that point made, the saving grace should you be pore filling with epoxy and find your project has developed amine blush, is that epoxy does a great job of sealing the wood from moisture. So you can wash and scour to your hearts content to remove the amine blush BEFORE you sand back ...not much help on a fretboard though but if you take the proper precautions, amine blush does not need to become an issue in any application.

Cheers

Kim