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Does anyone know of where to find a list of materials banned from leaving or entering the united states, and details of recognition of the materials on the restrictions, I mean technically CITES is about the TRADING of endangered species, but apparently some people have had bad experiences just trying to cross the U.S. boarder with certain materials affixed to their builds. Thanks jody

Jody;
Andy Depaule has some info in his site.
The Montreal Guitar show site may have some also.
Check www.luth.org also.

Mike

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Mike Collins

Thanks Mike, i am checking to see if registering an instrument before you leave the country is a valid form of protection . http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/travel/vacat ... _items.xml

there seems to be little specific information on this matter. jody

Yes I spoke with U.S. customs on the phone and instruments that are registered ( customs form 4457)before leaving the U.S. can be brought back and forth across the border with no problems. that at least covers the american side of the issue, now if the canadians have restrictions on bringing certains woods into their country it could open another issue ........... Jody

That registration is about taxes. It doesn't protect you from getting stopped over endangered species violations.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

The problem is that there's no way you can prove that you're not going to sell something once you take it across the border. The authorities thus have to assume you will, and not allow it.

Note, too, that even if the item you have is legal, you still have to take it through certain ports, and comply with other regulations. If you take an otherwise legal item through the 'wrong' port it can be confiscated, and sent to the facility where it can be tested and its provenance proved.

At the moment, everything is sort of up in the air. The best you can do is try to comply, and, when in doubt, don't try to get away with anything.

CITES compliance in the US, so far as I know, is taken care of by the Fish and Wildlife Service under the authority of the Lacey Act. Lacey covers a lot more than just CITES, and it supremely vague. You can get information on the FWS web site, including forms. Whther _all_ the forms and info you'd need is there is an open question, I think, but it's a place to start.

Would it be unwise to take a guitar across the border right now that has mac ebony and khaya?

Thank you Howard and Alan, for the additional points of view. I did mention the guitar was of H.mahogany , and some shell,and that my question was specificly about certain guitars , of certain materials, being confiscated, when being brought across the border ... having said that....I know perfectly well how dysfunctional our government can be on all levels, and how underinformed and overzealous some of its employees are! ....no responses from some of those americans that have done the Canadien shows, about their experiences crossing the border ..hmmm ... I guess i need to do some more homework, And thanks again to those that did respond ....Jody

Edward Taylor asked:
"Would it be unwise to take a guitar across the border right now that has mac ebony and khaya?"

I don't think there are any problems with khaya, but I can't be sure. There is, apparently, some poaching of Macassar ebony going on from national parks in Indonesia, and the authorities are on the lookout for that wood.

I recently got some wood from a local hardwood dealer, and noticed that they had Macassar in stock. I asked at the desk whther they had paperwork on it, and they looked at me as if I had two heads: "Why do you want to know?". I explained about the Lacey Act: they'd never heard of it. "Who passed that law?" "Well, congress!". "#*!@%% politicians!" I'm sure that somebody in the firm could track most of the wood they have, more or less, but these folks have warehouses full of tropical wood, and haven't gotten the word yet. How the heck are WE supposed to comply under the circumstances?

jody wrote:
"...no responses from some of those americans that have done the Canadian shows,... "

I've been going to Montreal for several years. The first year the organizers sent us a bunch of forms for Canadian and American customs. Basically, when taking stuff up you can declare it as 'personal property' for US customs, and get the forms stamped. When you come back they can check to see that you've got the same stuff you went up with (you didn't take up some WalMart junk and come back with handmade gems). The idea with Canadian customs is that you pay a duty on everything you bring in, and they refund it on the stuff you didn't sell...eventually.

I filled out the US customs forms, had them checked at the border, and they didn't look at things or ask any questions on the way back. The back-door word was to not bother with Canadian customs, and, if asked at the show, to simply say that the instruments you had were 'demos' that were not for sale at the show, but that arrangements could be made later.

From what I was told, one person did fill out all of the paperwork that year, and sold a guitar at the show, whereupon he was busted for lacking a Canadian work permit.

The follwing year the organizers basically told us to use the 'demo' line: nobody seemed to know what to do about paperwork.

We did get some hassles last summer coming back in. "When you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail": the customs agent we got was having a bad day, and decided that we looked like smugglers. Since we were carrying some instruments for another builder we had a LOT of stuff in the car, and that must have been a flag. In the end, my friend defused the situation by asking what we should have done. We should have declared the stuff on the way up. Next time we'll do that.

And that's one big point: they can't possibly check everything, or even most things, all that carefully. Most of the time, if you don't raise any flags, they'll just wave you through. But once in a while, for some reason or no reason, they'll check. Best to be ready.

The big problem, as exemplified by the earlier issue with Macassar, is you may not know, or have any way of knowing, let alone proving, whether you're in compliance or not. The mechanisms for 'grandfathering' old material are non-existant; if you bought that Brazilian rosewood before the CITES treaty was passed, and thus have no CITES paperwork on it, that's just too bad. Most wood workers don't stockpile the way we do, and we're so small and so far under the radar that our needs were never considered.

I'm currently working on an 'all local material' guitar for a customer who's tired of trying to get across borders with tropical woods. All of the stuff I take to Montreal in the future will be the same. That's not a complete protection; Lacey is incredibly vague, but it's about the best you can do. I always thought we'd get to the point of having to 'build local', I just never considered that it would be such a pain the the butt.

Hey Alan! thanks for taking the time share your experiences, if your typing is anywhere near as laborious as mine , i know it was a chore! so basicly I guess crossing border is a proverbial "toss of the dice"
I am trying to figure out what I need to do legaly, just to cross over and back, without losing my stuff.so I guess its.. dont Knowingly do anything illegal , fill out the proper paper work.. have a bit of faith , and hope if you are questioned you can schmooze the border patrol!
The scary thing is some woods are difficult to indentify , building with all local material may help you in the long run, but if the customs agents are unsure, they could still confiscate the item for identification .
the fact that lumber whoesalers are in the dark about the legislation illustrates my point about the dysfunctionality of our system.

thanks again .. Jody