Official Luthiers Forum!

Hi all,

Let me give you the intro. I am new to guitar building and while I havn't built my first yet I have been doing all the research I can while I build up enough of a tool base to get started. I have read everything I can get my hands on over the past couple years and while this is my first time posting I have read a whole lot on this site. I want to start with acoustic archtops, which I know is much more abitous then a flat top, but I feel confident in my abilities and think I could pull it off with a fair amount of success. Bennedetto's trio(book, dvd, plans) have become my bible. But the one area that I havn't been able to find(to my satisfaction) much info on is marketing your creation once you get to the point to do so. Let me clarify, I don't expect to get rich or be able to quit my day job by doing this(although it would be nice), but I would like to be able to recoop what I have invested in each guitar so I can fund my next. So my question to everyone here..... How do you make the big sell? Thanks in advance to all that reply.

David

David,

For me it helped to do repairs in 3 different stores, one of which was happy to hang a few guitars of mine in their show room to sell. I gave good deals to some local guitar teachers as well and over the years that has actually sold some guitars for me. I don't do it "professionally" anymore but still have some lagging word of mouth orders once in a while, just got one for an electric guitar actually

Welcome. I have yet to sell a guitar (I like them too much to let anyone else have them), but I've given it though and will give you a few rather obvious things I would do if I were to market to the public. Depending on what you're looking to accomplish, one, some, or none of these suggestions may be useful.

First, a professional looking, easy to navigate web page with at simply, easy to remember domain name would be a first move. If you're handy with a computer, this shouldn't be a huge problem. There are a good number of website templates available that would work just fine. If you don't feel up to the task, web design can be rather expensive from an outside source.

After that, it's kinda a crapshoot I would say. Once I thought my guitars were worthy, I would try to market them at any trade show that would let me set up a table. There are a smattering of them every year.

Depending on what's in you're area, you might look into seeing if a smaller guitar retailer would be interested in hanging a few of your guitars on the wall. Kind of stretches the term "custom" guitar since you're just building what you want instead of for a specific customer, but, at least when you're starting out, I would think having some models at least available to the general guitar-buying public would be a plus. Be ready for buckle rash or other such problems.

I don't know how economical or efficient it would be, but you could try an ad in the yellow pages with a picture of one of your works. Depending on you area, you may be on the very few custom makers around and, who knows, someone might give you a call.

Youtube may be a useful tool also. More and more it is being used for commercial purposes; so, use your imagination. Come up with some sweet, comical, or otherwise notable video that wins the viral video lottery, and you might have more customers than you want.

Sheer word of mouth. If you put your guitars in the hands of enough players and your guitars represent excellent quality for equal value, you will eventually make a sale. Take a guitar with you everywhere you go, and "go" often. Go anywhere musicians gather (open mics, the park, the local pub, etc.) and see what happens.

The recurring theme I have heard, however, is that it is simply very difficult to establish a customer base in the custom guitar world. Some of the best builders hanging around this forum only manage to do it part time and have to work "normal" jobs to support the habit and other general living expenses.

That said, if you can build nice guitars and you are willing to build them very cheaply (i.e., the cost of materials with potentially a minimal mark up, and I mean minimal, to help cover some tool costs), I doubt you will have a problem getting someone to bite. Build a few quality guitars, show your guitar playing buddies, and hint that you would be willing to build them one for almost cost. Depending on how many guitar playing buddies you have, you might want to be selective about how many hear the offer.

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Aaron Craig

I hope this doesn't sound too crass, but don't worry about it, yet. just focus on learning to build as well as you can. you don't yet have a product to market.

once you do build, if you build well, people will notice, especially if you have musician friends. you have plenty of time to work on your craft. at first, trust me, it's going to take you so long to build a quality instrument, that you won't want a short list of people emailing you to ask how it's going, on top of whatever you're trying to accomplish.

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"...you have to get over your strict adherence to your largely imagined notion of absolute perfection..."

I would also gently recommend that you put marketing in the farthest reaches of your mind and focus on the build.

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

As I said before, I'm not looking to get rich doing this. I would only like to recoop what I have invested in a guitar so I can move on to pay for the next. And since all I can do at this point is think and plan, I thought I would ask the question. Thanks for all the suggestions.

David

Step 1: Build the best guitar you can build, and show it to your friends who play (caveat - it may not be your first - chances are that one will end up on your wall, in the burn pile, etc. No criticism intended. It's simply that I found that the main objective with number 1 was to GET IT DONE. There will be frustrations and failures. It's definitely a "two steps forward, one step back" process.)

Once you have a guitar you're proud of (trying to be as objective as you can - and don't do what I did, and brag to everyone you know about the great guitar you just built. During the first two weeks after completion, you'll be totally irrational, and unable to objectively judge whether it's any good or not.)

One of your friends will like it (alot). Then you make them an offer (if they don't initiate it) of a commission at cost, (plus a bottle or two of something you like - (even if you can, you really don't want to charge a lot of money for your first 5 or ?? guitars - it's just about 100% certain that these first guitars will have serious structural issues. Those are your prototypes, and if you are in this for the long haul, you don't want someone showing those guitars around to prove what a crappy builder you are.

They play it, show it to friends, etc. Maybe you get another commission. Maybe you repeat step 1.

If you're anything like me, even with a lot of passion and hard work, it'll take about 10 guitars before you have something that you'd be proud to have someone pay substantial $$ for.

I think you're goal of having a hobby that pays for itself is great - and it's attainable. But get the first few good ones out there - even if you give them away as presents, donations, etc.

Have fun - and get started on number 1!!

Understood. I'm basically in the same place. It's worked for me so far to not have a 'marketing' plan. a plan may have hindered things from going for the best. I just put the stuff I've built or setup, so far, into the hands of my friends, and everything has taken off from there....word-of-mouth, etc. In a couple of years, I may look to go beyond that, but I'll definitely have to wait and see how the many variables unfold: mainly regarding what I'm capable of, in terms of quality, quantity, etc. I just don't know yet. I suspect it will be much the same for you.

I'm building in my spare time on top of a full time job. Guitar #1 took 10 months. Guitar #2 took ... longer. #1 was for me. #2 was for a friend. Once it became something being made for someone else, I couldn't let anything slide anymore. And as a result, I probably made, oh, $0.25/hour?

So I'm not at all eager to market these babies. I've got my plate full of other concerns to resolve, first. But meanwhile, the friend, and the friend-of-a-friend market has me booked well into 2011 or early 2012 (two guitars ... ).

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"...you have to get over your strict adherence to your largely imagined notion of absolute perfection..."

First things first, I think. If you build good instruments, people will want them. If people want them, you don't have to do any marketing.

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"Building guitars looks hard, but it's actually much harder than it looks." Tom Buck

I am a relatively inexperienced, hobbiest builder--probably two or three years ahead of you on this learning curve. In my opinion, the best approach is to just set about making a few guitars on your dime. As you do so one or more of your friends or family will probably get interested. If one of them is foolish enough <g> to want to pay for the materials and have you make a guitar for them, you will have attained your goal of recouping some of the costs of your hobby.

As for selling guitars on the open market, I'll second the comment about the level of skill one should attain before taking this step. Until one can build a world-class guitar, take it apart, complete any possible repair, and put the guitar back together again, sticking to the friends and family plan is the best policy.

Again, these are just my personal opinions. You may disagree, but I will still be right.

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George :-)

guess those confidence & self-assertiveness classes really paid off!

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If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason. - Jack Handey

In my area, there are quite a few "benefits" held to help out local families that have fallen on hard times, need medical help, etc. There is usually a day long event including live music with a lineup of local musicians (including my band - me playing one of my guitars) and an auction of items that people and local businesses donate. I have donated several guitars to be auctioned and they have been greatly appreciated. It also has allowed me to get a local following of sorts. I believe that you try to become known locally first and then broaden you scope as you progress. Plus it just feels good to help others less fortunate.

Look for these through local churches and other likely places and see if that might be another way to get your guitars out into the world.

Good Luck!!!

Chuck

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"To live a creative life, we must lose our fear of being wrong"
- Joseph Chilton Pearce

Thanks again to everyone for the advice. I know full well there are going to bumps along. Some in the begining the size of the grand canyon. I have talked myself into building a "prototype" before actually building my first. In other words build one out of cheap lowes grade hardwood before dropping a wad of cash on really nice tonewood. I know tonally if won't be the same and don't have any great expectations of that. I figured just to make sure the fit and finish created by the jigs I will need to make are correct I'd rather screw up a $5 piece of poplar rather then trash a $200 dollar piece of figured maple. It'll give me a chance to practice and like everyone has stated will make nice wall art. My "true" first I do intend to keep for myself no matter how crappy it be. My cousin said he might be interested in my second, of course depending on how the first turns out. Which if he was interested I would build one for cost of materials. Past that we'll see. I was just curious how everyone esle managed.

I would use the maple available at Lowes if you have it for your first - Poplar is easier to work than maple - maple from the home center would be a good test of your skills.

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It's this new idea from recent decades that everyone gets a participation award. - MUX

If your plan is to just recoup your materials cost, you are giving the guitar away, and if the work is decent, you will have no problem finding people who are happy to take advantage of you.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

I am on my 10th guitar right now. a while back there was a son of mine and my fathers friend who wanted to get some help in building a electric he´s been having trouble getting to finish ! I have a shop with tools, machines so I told him I would be willing to help him out, the deal was that he would use my shop and ones he got into a difficult thing I would fill in ! he came by 2 -3 times, now he has not been here for several months . either he has lots to do or hew felt that it was not as easy as he had thought !.
Books , plans, forums like this great forum etc. are handy ! bu7t far from enough if one does not have the skill one would need to make top notch guitars. ( as is required to have it as a profession !) to ask for how to market a guitar is valid, but way to soon to ask if your only at the book state and not yet have built even 1 guitar yet. I dont say this in a bad way, rather than to say that before you start investing in big tools , dreaming of marketing your guitars, perhaps get a kit guitar first and finish that, see how it goes ?. if that went like nothing then make one from scratch, then get better tools build a few more. Than start think about marketing.

Another good quote was what Filippo wrote.


Lars

I built first, guitar. Not so good.
I built second, mandolin. Funky but good.
I built third, guitar. Funky, but good. Sold to my house-mate.
Next, mandolin. Sold it locally.
Then a guitar, kept it for myself, finally!
And so forth...

In "good-guitar-land", market finds you!

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https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100008907949110

David,
I just don't understand why you don't want to get rich building guitars?!?

Over at the Mandolin Cafe someone recently revealed how to become a millionaire in luthiery. You start with 2 million and keep going til you reach a million.

Good luck,
Walter
PS There is a chapter on marketing in the Somogyi book.

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Walter Lay
"It's taken me so long, but now that I know
I can see. All that I do or say, is all I ever will be"
- Billy Joe Shaver

That's a good one

And I love Somogyi's technique. Hire a cute girl to take a picture holding one of your guitars. Since the vast majority of guitar players are male, it's almost a sure win
But he does have a lot of other good info as well. Basically the usual stuff, make a good web site, talk to lots of people, put out flyers, play open mics and such and show off your guitar to the other musicians, don't be a jerk. Long list of ideas. This is in the "making" book, by the way.

So far I've only built one, and it turned out great My plan is just to build more (I have about 13 designed already...) and sell some when I run out of room in the house to store them. One good idea someone posted here a while back was to set up a booth at a local art fair. There's a didgeridoo maker who usually has a booth at one fair here, so it seems to be a reasonable strategy, especially for someone like me who enjoys coating guitars in inlays

One idea I've been tossing around is to make a web site and put up my list of planned builds, with the option for people to "claim" one of them and customize it. Nut width, string spacing, decide Manzer wedge or not, maybe change scale length if it doesn't affect the design too much. But maybe easier just to build them the way I want and put some up for sale as-is, and do custom orders separately.

While I certainly understand the idea that your guitars have to be perfect before you sell one. I find it hard to believe that most of the great makers followed that. Benedetto said his first six or seven all came back because the fingerboards all came off but I highly doubt anyone would question his ability as a maker now. Also, if Gibson waited till they made a perfect guitar we'd all still be waiting and they get plenty of bread for their stuff. It's a lot like telling an aspiring musician that they have to be able to play all the standards in all twelve keys and at any tempo before they get their first gig. Nobody would ever get a gig if that were the case. Build one and if someone likes it then sell it to them. If you can't fix it under warranty then don't offer one (but charge accordingly). Anyway that's just another opinion and it's worth what you paid for it.
Jason

Ditto to that. Specially the Gibson part.

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Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

Wow, alot of opinions and views on how to aprouch this... I will say I am axious to get started and think it will be a fun positive experiance. Whether they sell or not we'll see. I'll refer to my favorite hendrix quote: "And soon enough time will tell, about the circus in the wishing well". I'll definately keep everyone posted how things go once they start to go. Speaking of which, anyone wanna buy a house so I can get moved and get my shop set up? But thanks for all the suggestions.

Actually, I have to disagree with this. 30-40 years ago, there were very few small shop luthiers making a living at building guitars. There were no books, no internet to help one fast track the learning curve. It was easier to sell a decent small shop guitar 30-40 years ago, compared to today.

But look at this here forum. Look over the "this is my first" threads over the past 3-4 years and I'll tell you, there are many many here who can make a great looking guitar, right out of the gate. Marketing one self is really the hard part IMO. Just like make a great sounding guitar, it takes a lot of time, knocking on doors so to say to become a house hold name. Competition for the small shop luthier is rather steep these days, and you have to have your ducks in a row otherwise you'll easily miss the boat.

Over the 6 years that I've been on this forum, I've seen this question come up probably 50 times by now. The allure of a cureer of luthier or guitar maker is certainly on theminds of many here, even me, but reality says that it's a relativly small market and I shoudln't rush the process.
I've also seen a few guys progress from first to 10 in less than 2 years time, and getting them out there to see if they can make a go at this. I wonder where they are now some of them...

I think if you can make something that you can be very pround of, something that can stand up to the other makers in your prospective price range and you feel confident that you can repair anyting that migh go wrong with them (support your product) then I say go for it.

A saying I heard once that has stuck with me; We may fall down on our face, but as long as we fall forward, we're making progess.

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Your biggest marketing weapon, especially in the beginning, is word-of-mouth. You want people to talk about your product - and you obviously want them to speak highly of it. You have to build a reputation in the small custom guitar world. Advertisements, websites,... can all help at some point in time to get your name further out and expand your market, but first and foremost you have to build a 'brand name'. How do you do that? Build a top-quality product and get it into the hands of capable players (opinion leaders) in a public venue. Those are the guys who have the power to influence others. If you give the guitar to your buddy who knows how to strum three chords and only does so in perfect solitude obviously won't help you much (although it's of course a nice thing to give your instruments to your buddy...it may just not help you very much in marketing your product...).

Christian