Official Luthiers Forum!

A few days ago, I stopped in at the Music Store and played a few different acoustics: Martin d-28, Taylor, Gibson, larivee. I really couldn't tell that much difference between them. I certainly couldn't quantify the difference. Which got me to thinking. I read all the time about how different luthiers do things to arrive at 'their' sound or a specific customer's sound. Sometimes, I think it's all just snake oil. Anyway, how many builders could seriously identify their own guitars if they were among four or five played behind a curtain or wall without actually seeing the guitar? I'm not sure I could. I'm badly in need of enlightenment on this topic.

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Under Compensated Nut!

Maybe you just have a bad ear.

That is something that we can develop. You have to work on it, if you want to be good luthier, I think. Personnaly, I ear BIG differences between a Martin Dread, a Gibson dread and a Larrivée Dread.

You can learn to ear these sounds, and you can learn to put some words on it.

Francis

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Francis Richer, Montréal
Les Guitares F&M Guitars

well, I may not have a good ear, but my point was: can a builder identify his/her guitars in a blind sound test? After all, if a luthier has a 'sound', then he/she should be able to identify it or maybe not. And you're right about differences in sound between guitars. But Huge differences? Not in my opinion. And could we tell a Martin, from a Taylor, from a Gibson from a Larivee in a blind sound test after we've actually seen them played? Would we still prefer the sound of the one we 'saw' played when it was one of five or six in a blind sound test? I guess my point is that our perception of sound from a guitar has something to do with what we see as well as what we hear.

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Under Compensated Nut!

A double blind test would be very enlightening indeed. I doubt you'd find many folks who'd participate though. Imagine the five most sought after builders commiting publicly to which one they thought sounded the best and then the great reveal....I doubt any would risk it. I know I would be hard pressed to identify mine in a field of five. Maybe in a field of three...
Sure would be interesting!
That being said, I'm pretty sure I could tell between the four brands you mentioned...

yes. I guarantee I could Identify a Taylor from a Martin from a Gibson in a blind test if i got to hear them first. Larivee probably not, because I've only heard a handful of them.

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"All of us contain Music & Truth, but most of us can't get it out."
- Mark Twain

I haven't seen any maker claim a particular sound or that they could differentiate thier sound in a crowd. That would be silly. So much of a guitar's sound depends on the strings used and how tired they are that any luthier worth his/her salt would never make such a claim.

However, if you blindfolded the luthier, put 5-6 guitars in their hands sequentially and asked them to pick out thiers, I believe most would succeed. The weight, balance, feel of the neck and fingerboard, shape of the body/curves feel of the finish, etc. etc. are all things that are tangible differentiators. But, what would be the point of that exercise?

Dave F.

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Cambrian Guitars

"There goes Mister Tic-Tac out the back with some bric-brac from the knick-knack rack"

go to http://www.vinocellar.com/wine-forums.aspx and ask the folks over there if they really believe that it is possible to differentiate one rotten grape from another. Then come back and talk to us.

p.s. I like the idea of doing a real test. Especially if it was a player test; blind fold me in a room full of 50 or 100 guitars hand me one guitar - I only touch the playing surfaces no head stock etc.- let me play it for 5 min. take it away. I remove blind fold and play every one searching for the original. I'd bet $20 I could do it; $100 I could narrow it down to top 5.

I can, and have identified mine, both by playing them blindfolded, and with others playing them. I can also tell individual guitars apart. A couple months ago I successfully identified 3 of mine (a Little Jumbo, a Dread and a 00) and also correctly identified a 1955 Martin D18, a 1964 Gibson J50, a 1940's Gibson Southern Jumbo, a 2000ish Taylor 610CE, a Larrivee D03R and a 2000ish Martin 000-28VS. There's was also a Blueridge, and Recording King. I identified them backwards.

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I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said.
http://www.brackettinstruments.com/

So far mine all sound overbraced and poorly intonated, so it probably wouldn't be all that difficult to identify them.

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George :-)

Hey, no fair, that's cheating!

hey Woody, I'm impressed, man. That's quite a feat.

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Under Compensated Nut!

Dave has an important point. As a player, my favorite guitars not only have a certain sound, but a certain feel. A lot of it is the neck and fingerboard, and the fret prep, but as Dave says, the balance, how the instrument fits you when you hold it, etc. I try to build in a lot of feel in my guitars, matching the neck profile to the players' hands and style, varying the neck width; that sort of thing. So, while I may not pick mine out of a bunch played behind a curtain, I know I could pick mine out blindfolded if I played them.

Maybe "huge" isn't the right word. But there are differences and the differences are significant and identifiable.

Just about any guitar player can tell the difference between an 'e' string that is .012" and .013". that's not a "huge" difference. but it is, in terms of feel. it's .001"... and guitar players can feel that...think about that for a moment. the distinctive sound of instruments is a lot like that, they can be heard.

I've been a somewhat serious guitar player for about 25 years. I have a master's degree in guitar performance. I also worked at a Martin dealership for a while.

When I hear people talk about a Martin sound, the term seems much too general to me. there's 30's Martins and 70's Martins, after all. and the 80's Martins generally (are not great, and) are much different than the 90's Martins (which were pretty darn good). but the instruments can vary quite a bit.

Gibson, Larrivee, Martin and Taylor are all different from one another. It's a fact. And it can be heard. There's nothing snake oilish about sound. these guitars have different kinds of bracing patterns, as well as dozens of other variables, which highly influence the sound. These variables can be copied, and modified. That's what luthiers do.

do dive into this, because this is what it's all about. I started building because I heard that thing I wanted on one or two instruments, and no others ... and I couldn't afford to buy it, so here I am trying to make it.

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"...you have to get over your strict adherence to your largely imagined notion of absolute perfection..."

I can tell diffrence between a , lectric and a coustic blindfolded !

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