Official Luthiers Forum!

I'm really interested in getting Ervin's book on voicing, The Responsive Guitar, but I'm not totally ready to pull the trigger yet. His DVD was totally interesting and did a great job of explaining what the top's movements are, but it never really got around to any discussion about how you can influence them. Does the book? Note: I'm not asking if the book gets into how to make a guitar sound like this or that, but rather specifically, does it get into any discussion about influencing cross-dipole, for example, if that's something you want to bring out in your instrument's voice?

Not so much.

I'd love to hear more about what's in there. I get bits an pieces of information about it on the web but not enough for me to make any sense out of it.

For example, I saw a post that shows how to make a 3d model of brace stiffness by scaling up all top braces by the cube of their height. When I asked what Ervin teaches people to do with this model I was repeatedily told that he didn't tell them what to do with it. I got the impression that he left that to their imagination. And one guys imagination ran wild with it.

John

He seems to get you thinking about at least it in my opinion, but he's not going to tell you how to shape your braces for a specific mode. I like the book and have gone through it a couple of times.

One thing you might think about though if you want influence a particular mode is the various forms of bracing patterns and the modes they favor.
For example; Lattice (mode 1) vs fans (cross dipole) vs ladder (long dipole), each of these will influence the different modes different amounts.

_________________
Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

James : If you buy the book looking for info on how to do I think you might be a bit disappointed. But if you are looking on info for how the guitar works I think you will be pleased. As Jim has pointed out the book is geared to make you think. Over the years I have collected just about everything out there on guitar construction. This book in my mind is by far the best in understand the workings of the guitar.Wish I had access to it years ago ,it would have saved a bit of frustation over the years. The companion book also has some good info in it but it is more along the lines of the typical how to build book. The two go very well together and if at all posible don't deprive yourself of the pleasure.But just MHO.
Tom

_________________
A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!

I bought both books thinking that for three hundred bucks he would at least spill a couple of his secrets. NO DICE He still wants you to spend a couple 'o' thousand in his yearly class.

I felt cheated.... almost sent them back along with a request for my money back.

Mike

_________________
The Biggest Little City, Nevada
www.hammondguitars.com
I love building guitars!

The books are beautifully printed and bound, much like the construction of his guitars. A very admirable fellow and very entertaining, I like his heritage and lineage of craftmanship. Do not expect any epiphany. Good woodworking is simply good woodworking and being a good luthier is simply good woodworking. T.

I must agree with Mike that any one looking for the magic secret to guitar building will not find it in Somogyi's books. Because there are no magic secrets,what is in these books are a whole multitude of principles with a systems approach that if studied and thought out will lead you to building better guitars.Lots of folks must understand what is published there because they can certainly make good guitars without having read the books. More power to them.With all the data that is out there,like this Forum,plans ,kits etc. it is reasonably easy to build a decent guitar especially for someone who is handy with thier hands. Somogyi goes beyond how to put parts together.He tells you how the guitar works and how to make it work better. Please don't think that I see Somogyi as the only authority because he is not and I don't support all he has to say in the both books.For myself, who has been building since the 70's and have a liberary of just about everything ever published,these books are the best of the best. Again just MHO.
Tom

_________________
A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!

We've had this conversations lots of times in the past. But if you are thinking that there ARE secrets he isn't spilling you will be sorely disappointed. There aren't. His methodology is a "system". It is a way to think about bracing and voicing. The entire process centers around the 3 principle modes of vibration, monopole, cross dipole, and long dipole. Once you understand what influence these have on the tone of the guitar you can think about voicing using what you know about these systems to get the desired outcome.

IMO Ervin is often unfairly criticized for not sharing the secret formula... but I have been through all of it, and I assure you. There isn't one. His system is excellent. It really has helped me immeasurably, but it isn't an answer or secret formula. It is just a methodology that you can apply to get the sound you are looking for.

And truth be told, even after I came back from his class it took me a while to find my groove with his system. It was probably 5 or 6 guitars before I finally had a system that I liked dialed in. If you look at the bracing from any of those guitar you would say they look very similar, but in truth there were several significant differences. The thickness of the tops, the height of the X, the way the fingerbraces work, the bridge patch. these were all things that took time to get them to produce the sound I was really after.

I think I have what I am looking for now and it was his methodology that helped guide me there.

If you read the books and think about them carefully they go through just about everything he teaches in the class. The class is great because you can ask lots of questions and dig into topics (we spent a whole day on bridge design) but the books have all the material in there.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

well I think building good sounding guitars is much more than " just good wood working " and there certainly are secrets to getting the most sound out of certain pieces of wood. Ervins books are filled with much good and positive information however he does not give you the secret of HIS sound .I think if you read between the lines,and have a bit of information that comes from other sources, the secret is in there, he just does not give you a free pass to " go to the head of the line " he does give you the parameters ( i think ) if you are willing to go through the process of building and experimentation through several or (more) instruments , you just might get there.Ervin is doing a masterfull job of marketing himself,to the point of having almost a cult following ! I think all the information is out there , if you are willing to dig and do the research.. if you think you are going to become a master builder by spending $5.000.00 for 10 days in class ,without going through the actual building of many guitars , you will probably be dissapointed ! Jody

James, I read your original post a while ago,
and was thinking about it.
Do you want to become a luthier that can build a guitar that you might have a better idea of what it will sound like when done?
Do you plan to build a lot of guitars, for sale?
Or do you want to build say another six or so in your life.
I find it fun to go with my gut, and figure stuff out for myself.
I'm cheap, too!
So, even after reading these books, you are still going to have to build a lot of guitars to get it sort of, down.
I met Tom Ribbecke the other day, and he said he's still trying to figure it out.
Ha.

Alan, I want to make guitars that sound like what I want them to.

I don't understand why this continues to be so difficult to discuss. Here are three very different scenarios:

1) 2nd grade teacher talks about this thing called the commutative property and goes no further.

2) 2nd grade teacher talks about this thing called the commutative property and says it can be applied to addition and subtraction.

3) 2nd grade teacher talks about this thing called the commutative property, writes 2+3 = 5 and 3+2 = 5 on the board and goes no further (i.e. giving you the secret to his/her sound).

What scenario are the books? That's all I'm asking.

Wonderful illustration.

Here's what I got (and continue to get) from Somogyi's books.
2) 2nd grade teacher talks about this thing called the commutative property and says it can be applied to addition and subtraction.......and acknowledges that the sums that are involved in this and other properties have a significant impact on the outcome of the equation.

These properties are rules for how the mathematical world works. I see Somogyi's books as guidelines for how guitars work. Lots of variables, no absolute recipes or prescriptive absolutes in terms of measurement or "how to" but at the end of the day there are some guidelines that are very useful and thought provoking,

No secret sauce here - but a reaaaally good cookbook. Buy the books. Definitely worth the money.

with 5 being our goal for the desired sound of the guitar, teacher talks about influences a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h,i,j,k.... etc etc then writes (?) + (?) = 5 Jody

James, while I haven't seen the DVD, I would expect it to be a short version of the book. I would also suspect that his $$$ course would be about the same. As pointed out by others, Ervin is providing a framework for you to figure it out for yourself. There are no shortcuts to finding your sound, just experimentation.
In short, you ill not get many builders telling you what exactly they do to get to where you want to go because they don't know. They know their own tone based on a lot of experimentation and it is proprietary.
My recommendation is to watch the DVD over and over letting it all sink in over time. You will find your framework. Instrument building is not reductionist. It's intuitive...

I have to fully disagree with that statement. Disclaimer: I haven't read Ervin's book, nor seen the DVD, nor taken his class.
Building a guitar (or any other musical instrument) is as much art than science and expecting to uncover "secrets", even for a fee, is either laziness or believing in fairy tales. There are no secrets. And where there is pretence of a secret, it always seems pathetic, overblown or even inadequate once the "secret" is uncovered.
There is no magic formula and/or materials to building an exceptional guitar. Every successful builder has a method, refined after much practice, thinking and sharpening of her or his understanding on how everything works, individually and as an ensemble. This sensorial and intellectual "baggage" is impossible to fully explain or even transmit from person to person.
I suspect what a good teacher provides to a student is a sort of framework and understanding upon which to build his or her own method(s). Although they seem a bit pricey, Ervin's books must have much to offer, but I sincerely doubt they provide answers to all questions, or even to everybody's questions.

_________________
Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

there are no secrets??? Why does an asian " knock off" guitar sound inferior the martins it copies ? even though it is the same body style and materials! even more so why do ( average) about two of ten martins sound great, and a master builder can achieve a much higher ratio of success with a higher ratio of world class sounding guitars using the same woods ? Try asking the world class builders how they do it . its all a big mystery? ! yeah, BULL- ogna! If guitar building is all about woodworking, you should be able to put strings on your dresser or kitchen table, and if it is well built it should sound wonderfull! Right ? the first thing I would wonder is how do your guitars sound ?! builders are very secretive about voicing techniques.i have read all the popular books and watched all the popular cd 's / dvd's . Not one gives any specifics, I would call that a secret. you call it a fairytail if you want to . Jody

I have to agree with Laurent, there are no magic secrets. Do you want to know what his secret is, He knows how to work the wood to achieve what he wants. This comes from years of building. That is his secret. To teach you how to work the wood he can only guide you, you need to learn for yourself. Buy the book and let him be your guide.

I have both books, and though I haven't seen the DVD, I was present at the talk where it was made. There's a lot of good information, but I do agree that it's disappointing that Somogyi withholds some pertinent information as "proprietary," notably any dimensions or pictures of his completed bracing. He has a right to do so, but it does contrast with the detailed and generous information shared--for free--by other eminent luthiers such as Mario Proulx, Todd Stock, and Alan Carruth.

While the material Somogyi withholds could be useful to have, of course it would not rise to the level of being the sole and wonderful "secret" of making great guitars.

Near the end of his life, Antonio Torres was asked by his friend Juan Martinez Sirvento share his secret. He wrote in response:

". . . my secret is one you have witnessed many times, and one that I can't leave to posterity, because it must with my body go to the grave, for it consists of the tactile senses in my finger pads, in my thumb and index finger that tell the intelligent builder if the top is or is not well made, and how it should be treated to obtain the best tone from the instrument."

_________________
Tim Allen
"Never hurry, never rest."

I'd say that's probably the closest, and a little frustrating that there are not more real world examples. He does point out some of the differences between traditional designs, so it's not completely devoid of examples. He does a lot of hypothetical thought experiments to help illustrate principles. I haven't had much shop time since I read them, but I feel like I can be a lot more methodical going forward. He has a good writing style and it's a really interesting read. I plan on reading through it again, this time reading the many end note references along the way.

Most folks don't talk about the "Making..." book as much, but I really enjoyed it. It's all "how-to". The chapters on binding are great and extremely detailed.

The books are expensive, but dense with content, and there's really not another book like it. I figured if it eventually saved me from tossing at least one dud guitar in the closet, then it will have been worth it.

FYI, buying from LMI saves you some on shipping, and is probably shipped faster.

_________________
______________________________
Jonathan Kendall, Siloam Springs AR

You are talking about different things. No one can seriously state that building a guitar is all about woodworking. As a matter of fact a lot if not most guitar builders do not come from a woodworking background.
Comparing cheaply made (and sold) factory guitars assembled by an unqualified workforce with a modern factory with over a century and a half of history is preposterous. In any case, a factory guitar, Martin or otherwise, is not the product of an artisan, but a well thought out process relying on the lowest common denominator.
No possible comparison with modern artisan-luthiers, CF Martin or Torres. The belief that there is a secret somewhere will keep anybody from progressing, forever.
When I was working at Pantheon, Dana Bourgeois, who was very generous with his knowledge, explained and illustrated many times his voicing process. No secret there, just experience and a well thought out process by somebody who by all accounts can be considered successful in having built outstanding guitars. Even though I could understand Dana's thinking and rationale, and it all made sense, I could not feel what his fingers felt while flexing and touching the plates, or hear exactly what he heard. Again no secret there, Dana's "lessons" were very useful for me, but it took a while for the principles to make sense and sink in. In any case, I couldn't say I use his method, I do not, but he provided a good and solid foundation for me (and others) to start thinking about "voicing", and build my own method.
It's not about dimensions either, as within fairly tight parameters, it can be all over the place.

_________________
Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

Thank you! THIS is what I was asking. NOT for secrets or if the books explain how to clone his sound!

I believe that by "secret" people mean a detailed set of plans.

_________________
Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.