Official Luthiers Forum!

It's been brought up in another thread that needs to stop being high-jacked... that if you are in the guitar repair business and a customer comes in with a guitar that needs repair and this guitar was built by either a one-man shop or a small operation such as a multi-person operation do you alert the builder(s) or not?

My reality is that my first duty, always... is to do no harm and this means to the client and/or his/her guitar. I have seen instances where customers were advised that repairs needed might be covered under warranty if the customer wanted to contact the maker and consult with them. But again this is not contact that I make or really want to have to make....

Broken guitars are brought to me with a hope and expectation that I will fix them and make them right. Sometimes the owner wants it to play better and sometimes, fairly often actually in my neck of the woods guitars are brought to me to be fixed prior to being sold perhaps on eBay or elsewhere.

My focus is fixing the guitar with best practices AND having a fair and ethical relationship with my customer. If I was a duly anointed warranty repair station for a brand I can see a duty to be a team player with that brand and perhaps more sensitive to not publicly revealing that a guitar needed service and the nature of this service. But then there are professionals here on the OLF who I and my customer may benefit from by sharing knowledge.

After all is this not what a forum is for?

As a builder too and as someone who knows many of you I know all too well that even great, very well made guitars can need service from time to time. Accidents happen, user error, humidity issues in winter months, and the all too common "can you lower the action" which does not mean that the guitar is flawed in any way.

When a client brings me a guitar that one of you made, folks who I know and or know of and also know to be a one person shop I personally would be more sensitive to if entering a discussion perhaps coding my remarks so as to not reveal the maker. Your guitars BTW do show up for service, repair folks like me see how you build and we speculate on what you may have not done correctly that caused the say need for a neck reset in less than 3 years... Yep - that happens. We also see your guitars coming from second owners etc and we hear real life owners complain about their guitars.

Now if someone wants me to call them and subject myself to what ever happens next, not all of you or the folks that we don't know are going to trust the judgment of a repair person who they do not know and there is the issue of ego too and how some folks take information in less than in a professional manner that their work is now failing .

Anyway it's not the business that I am personally in to inform the maker that I have one of their guitars in my shop for repair and I have yet to see anyone else doing this either. If I thought it would be helpful to me or my client to inform the maker that may be a different matter. But, OTOH if I need the maker's advice to fix a guitar I have no business being in the repair business.

Now - second issue - do we discuss these repairs on an open forum? My belief is that it's fair game and that is why it's so VERY important that we all do the best work that we can always. If we can't discuss say a neck reset that may have happened to be needed in less than 5 years time what will we talk about?

Some months back the very same individual who raised this question also felt that it was appropriate for us to discuss allegedly sub-standard work brought up by a first time poster and with the builder, a one man shop being named. Now since I have brought up a repair that I did on a guitar that was not made by any of you I am being criticized. That's why I believe that this is not a sincere question but nonetheless let's address it. Also I am usually the one who is accused of being too "nice" and as a result stifling dialogue where now I am criticized for not informing a builder that I have one of their guitars in my shop... and mentioning it here on the OLF. Double standard?

It's not personal, at least when I bring up a repair, and I in no way have ill intent toward the maker. There are a very few makers that I would never bring up simply because under the circumstances I know that truthfully I may have ill will as much as I would wish not to.

So if you get a guitar in your shop for repair and it was made by say a 2-5 person outfit and not one of us would you if helpful to others:

1) Discuss the repair on the OLF indicating the nomenclature of the guitar so as to help center the discussion?

2) Feel any obligation what so ever to the original builder to contact them and inform them of what you have, what you see, perhaps who brought it in, and maybe even what you intend to do about it...?

3) Should we call the builder and ask them or allow them to be "involved..." in the repair?

4) Do we have a duty to contact the builder for the reason of helping them to learn how to be a better builder?

Before I let this one rip I wanted to add that in the real world, customers calling and bringing in guitars that need attention the focus in task centered - what do I have to do. Teeing up things in a neat little box where everyone accepts criticism well and no one is ever a jerk just is not realistic.

So how would you answer the above questions, please?

The neck set issue was fair game, imo. why not discuss the matter in detail? as long as it is honest, everyone serves to benefit. I wouldn't mention the builder's name though. black it out, or omit it. let the builder come forth, if they want to.

but that was a specific matter.

if these things happen in the future, each case might be different. I can see bringing up an issue and saying "here's what I learned from this" -or- "what should I do about this?"

... but I can't see anything good coming out of a statement like, "hey fellas, I just happened to see guitar #30-something built by Del Langejans and it needed a neckset, badly, but Del affixed the neck with epoxy. In fact, he let the excess epoxy ooze out from under the neck block so, that it looked like a bead of caulk around it. And while I'm at it, gosh, I should also mention that the bracing was massive! What a dog of a guitar!"*










* TRUE STORY

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"...you have to get over your strict adherence to your largely imagined notion of absolute perfection..."

I would imagine that custom builder repairs would make up a very small % of repairs a typical shop would see. Factory guitars represent the vast majority of guitars in the general population and as such would make up the vast majority of required work. Being able to contact a builder and collaborate on a repair seems to me to be in the best interest of doing no harm and better serving the customer.

...No problem discussing the repair on an open thread...just don't reveal the builder.

...Contact the builder regarding issues that he should know about, or warranty work that he would prefer to perform.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Hesh,
I believe you have no obligation except to do the best repairs you can do. If you need information on the guitar to do your job correctly, then contact the builder. Otherwise, I wouldn't bother.

However, you might start a post asking builders if they want to be contacted should you see one of their instruments and notice ways that it can be improved. This way, the builder is the one making the initiative to receive critique. I for one would love to be included on that list. I have learned so much from listening to the advice of others on how I can improve my instruments!!!

Best Regards,
Simon

I would want to be contacted if there was an issue with any of my guitars. How do you get better if you don't know what your complications are? That's the feedback that really means something.

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Oy ve…

I am absolutely positive that most if not all hand builders would prefer to do the repair themselves -most likely for free if it's a warranty issue-, even if the guitar is a 2nd or 3rd hand. I would if the case arises and if I'm still alive. So the best course of action IMHO is to suggest the owner to contact the builder (or shop) directly.

I see nothing wrong in pointing issues with builders/brands in a constructive and non-aggressive manner. The current PC attitude is ultimately self-defeating and self-destructing. The builder's crowd is a awesome one, but as in every human endeavour, it includes dishonest or incompetent elements (sometimes both) that need to be recognized.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

If there was a problem with one of my guitars, I'd want to know. But I might not want the rest if the world to know. So why use names at all really? If it is a technical problem who built it is irrelavent IMO, be it Grand Poobah best maker ever or Joey basement guy like me. The technical info about how to fix or avoid the problem could still be useful...(oh, I've been doing that, guess I'd better stop), but again the issue isn't who but what. Calling a maker about a repair on the other hand might be very useful in regards to a specific guitar if there is anything particular about it worth knowing, like epoxied frets or type of neck joint etc.
I'm always careful about names on the net, things can swiftly get out of hand. I recall a thread not too long ago where a guy was hung drawn and quartered here long before he even had a chance to see the problem guitar.

I agree that my first priority is my client. So if I got a small shop guitar in for repair (or a factory one, for that matter) and I thought it may be a warrantee issue, I'd recommend that we contact the builder right away so the client doesn't potentially pay me for a repair that could get done for free. I'd offer to call to explain the issue myself in luthierese. A lot of owners don't speak it.

If it wasn't under warrantee but appeared to be a defect, I'd ask the owner if it was OK if I contacted the builder to let them know. I would assume that any builder would want to know, as would I. I'd do that as a courtesy, not an obligation. But I'd also recommend it in case someone wanted to go ahead and fix it free even though it wasn't under warrantee.

As for naming names, that's fraught with problems either way. Might as well leave that up to the moderators. That's why they get the big bucks.

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http://www.chassonguitars.com

This seems simple: What would you want if you were the builder? What is your purpose in posting? The Golden Rule and a little self-awareness ought to answer all your questions.

Anyone who flames another luthier shouldn't expect to remain part of our community and we, the other community members, ought not to tolerate such behavior. Lack of respect works in politics, unfortunately, but isn't part of our tradition. This is about the people (and their friends) we're likely to run into at the next ASIA or GAL symposium or guitar show, not about a semi-anonymous internet ego trip. Lutherie is still a small community. Treat it with respect and it'll thrive. Use it for personal ego trips and it'll wither.

OK First I apologize to the OLF community for bringing up anything related to yesterday that is not a sincere question here as the 4 questions that I asked above. I was wrong to reintroduce crap from yesterday, no excuses - I apologize.

Next I think that I should not have named the makers of the guitar that I named in the other thread either - although I would expect that if someone wanted to discuss one of my guitars in for repair that I would be named but that's me. I do wonder how we talk about anything specifically if we have to code nomenclature. Although a factory with far more ability to get litigious than most of us Martin, Gibson, Taylor are seemingly never exempt from being mentioned either... good enough for a Gibson, Martins from the 70's with toothpaste like glue under the bridge etc. But I understand the sensitivity and apologize for my own insensitivity. I also said in my post that I would never name anyone I know or know of but I'll take this further in the future to not name any who is not a factory.

Rick my purpose in posting are the questions as asked. I did not ask anyone if they wanted to be contacted by a repair person if they have one of your guitars in the shop for repair. Although that's a good question but a no-brainer as to the answer on a builder forum... its not what I asked. If you would like to discuss off line I am happy to call you.

Kent I agree that any builder should want to know if their guitars are in for repair but again that is not what I asked. I gave a few guitars away as some here know and the only thing that I ever asked for in return was for an occasional contact letting me know how the guitar is doing over time and with use. We all benefit from learning how our wares do - agreed.

Laurent is right too that we all would want to know but that is not what I am asking.

Here is the question in a nutshell - does a repair person have any obligation to contact the builder of a guitar when that guitar lands in their shop for repairs? Although I appreciate examples such as needing to know what finish is on the guitar etc. I am more concerned with more routine things such as fret dressing, making a new nut, perhaps a bridge reglue (not routine but not uncommon) etc. Where I am going with this is that here on a builder forum I expect that nearly everyone wants to know when ever one of their guitars is spotted but I suspect that on a repair forum the majority of repair people in real world situations would find contacting the original builder to be a rare occurrence. I'm in this group not seeing the obligation to contact builders unless it's of course in the best interest of the client i.e. possibly warranty work, unknown finish, unable to determine the sort of neck joint and probably other reasons too.

Number 4 of my original questions is do we have a duty to contact the builder so that they may learn to be a better builder is fraught with unrealistic expectations in my view. I can clearly see this taken the wrong way as being critical in that I would not expect a repair person to contact me either. But what do you think - do you have a duty as a repair person NOT as a builder to contact the builder so that the builder can learn from your assessment?

Thanks

Sorry I forgot - Rick asked if I would want to be contacted if one of my guitars landed in a repair shop.

Answer: Sure but its not required and I would never expect this either. Repair people are busy and if competent the need for any contact would be pretty limited I would imagine.

There's no obligation for any builder or repair person to do anything. We can only hope that builders and repair technicians have integrity, honesty and a moral compass that compels them to do the right thing... much like a golfer who calls penalties on himself even when nobody's looking. It shouldn't have to be debated so rabidly nor a poll taken to determine right from wrong. It's common sense and decency for the craft and its members. Thank you, Rick for your commentary.

I accept the apology...let's move on.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Man, I don't know if I'm just stupid or what,maybe there is a secret section of the forum that I don't have access to but I have not a clue what is going on here and have tried to look back and see what happened and can't find a thing.Is it time for me to pull the plug...? Does anyone else feel the same way......????
Tom

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A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!

Well Dude: I thought it was just me going nuts.

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A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!

Not if it's a Padma instrument !

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Mike Collins

If I didn't understand the question(s), I can only blame being just back from a long weekend and needing more time to re-enter both the shop and the Forum. Perhaps this is more to the point:

It's essential that everyone be aware that this is a public forum, accessible to many people beyond the small number who post here ("not one of us" -- from the original post). Anything that can be taken in more than one way, will be. Anything that can be made into a criticism of a luthier will be spread well beyond this site. And it will get back to the luthier -- probably not in any way the originator would want.

So Hesh, I guess my answer is that it's up to us to make sure that no luthiers are hurt when we post, even if it means assuming your audience is full of mean-spirited idiots who want to twist your meaning. "We" may not be, but "they" are reading, too.

Thanks Rick and I completely agree and again I learned something here today.

I also agree with Filippo and appreciate his insight as a client of Luthier built guitars. If I understand Filippo correctly he believes that as a client the repair person's first duty and responsibility is to his/her client. If I have this wrong Filippo forgive me please and let me know where I am not understanding you correctly.

If I do understand Filippo correctly this is exactly my point too. I see my duty as being to my client when repairing their guitar. I also have a new found sensitivity to not doing anything that would cast doubt on an industry member. I'll add that historically speaking this had not been what I am known for...

To summarize I'm not going to name any non-factory builder on a public forum again. I also feel no obligation or moral duty to inform any builder that one of their guitars is in my shop - my duty is to my client AND the guitar... This has always been my position and remains unchanged.

I'm all for moving on and continue to do so and I would like to hear the perspectives of others as to if a repair person has any obligation/duty be it moral, team player in the industry, political, or any other reason that I may be missing to contact the builder and discuss that we have one of their guitars in our shop. Again of course reasons that don't represent the interests of the client as described above i.e. questions that would benefit the client if asked.... aside.

Many of you do repairs - have you repaired a fellow builders one-person-shop guitar before and did you contact them? If so why and if not why not? On average what's your MO in respect to contacting builders?

Thanks

Is the Padma still out of town? To be Padma-esque in a reply, what goes around comes around.
When I started in the trades as a glazier, one of the old timers really shook me down to make sure that I understood something, never bad mouth another's work, simply say that you do it differently and what the advantages may be with your method in this situation.
As many have stated, there is a responsibility to the client, I agree it is the priority, but we have a responsibility to our trade as well. As a contractor, I grew weary of the mistrust that was automatic from the client. When home owners call for work, they have this attitude that is not about hiring an honest contractor, but they are trying to hire the least dishonest one. Basically they assume that we are all thieves to a degree, it really rubbed me, but you can't blame them, with all the press and word of mouth about unscrupulous contractors, what can you expect? So do we want the luthery clientèle to adopt this type of attitude?
Rob

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http://shastaguitar.com/
http://www.kalimbakit.com/
http://www.youtube.com/user/comfyfootgr ... ature=mhee
http://www.facebook.com/robert.renick.7

I think anyone of us the do repairs for any length of time run into this scenario . When it happened to me , I just made the repair and charged the customer . If it were my guitar as a builder I would like to know if there was a design flaw so I don't repeat it but the way I see it , is my customer is that , my customer and the builder is just that , the builder and so I guess I would say fix it and keepeth thy mouthish shuttith .
Even a fish would stay out of trouble if he kept the trap shut .

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

I think I agree with this and Filippo's stance. If the owner wanted to go to the builder, they would have.

I work in medical sales very closely with a lot of spine surgeons and spine implant reps. I've not met a surgeon who's made a mistake and had to revise their own work ever! Just about everyone fixes other guy's mistakes though .

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

wow.
i read this this morning, and looks like it's grown into a redwood tree.
fwiw, do what you want or feel like about telling the builder.
not in public. you'd need a jury in some of those cases.
ha! the person that bought the guitar wanted to originally, right?
so it must have sounded good and played to their liking, right?
i would just fix it, and not say anything to the builder, or the customer,
unless, it was something dangerous about the guitar that could hurt somebody.

I don't see why you would need to contact the luthier who made it. The customer brought it to you to fix, not the maker. I might ask how old the instrument is and if it seems like it may be a warranty issue then I might tell them to call the maker but otherwise I would just do what the customer wants. It's their instrument, not mine.
Jason

I know someone who had to repair a musical instrument with a failure that seemed to be related to an unusual design feature. (Specifying the instrument, the failure, or the feature, might reveal the maker.) Without thinking, and regrettably, this repair person tried to contact the maker without mentioning this to his/her customer. He/she did not mention the customer's name, but did describe the failure, and inquire about the finish used on this instrument to facilitate the repair.The maker did not respond to the inquiry.
My questions:#1: Did this repair person act unethically in contacting the maker? #2: Did the maker act unethically in not responding to the inquiry? #3: Did the customer act unethically in not contacting the maker? #4: Did the guitar act unethically in failing? #5: Have I acted unethically by suggesting that musical instruments can fail? (Is "failure" perhaps too negative a word?) and #6: Has anyone encountered a similar success reduction?

This is an imperfect world. Can we settle for a spheroidal chicken? (I see those for sale at the supermarket.) And can it please be an ethical spheroidal chicken?

I'm thinking any talk of some onus being upon anyone to contact a builder because one of his guitar is having an issue is just a little too precious, it's not like the repair guy has the builder's wife sitting up on the bench, its just a guitar. The builder had his chance to get things right 'before' he sold the guitar. The customer, that is the guy who now 'owns' the guitar, well he made a choice not to take it back to the builder and that was his choice to make. The priorities of the repair guy should of course remain what is best for 'his' customer and if he knows his stuff, then he can quickly identify the problem and clarify for the owner if the issue was caused by shoddy workmanship or some other issue over which the builder had no control.

Of course if the repair guy thought that the 'builder' may have in fact have had 'his' wife up on the bench at some time, then the accuracy of any assessment regarding the extent of the builders liability may be questionable.....

Customer: Hey can you fix my guitar? I put my foot through the top when I was drunk and now I'm too embarrassed to take it back to the builder and show him what I done.

Repairer: Who was the builder?

Customer: Its a JB custom guitar.

Repairer: That wouldn't be a 'Joesph Bloggs' piece of junk would it???

Customer: Why yes! What's the problem??

Repairer: Well where do you want me to start? Lets just say I love that klutz cause he's single handedly paid off my mortgage.

Cheers

Kim