Official Luthiers Forum!

Think its also a theory v practical debate (+/_ trends, personal preferences/tastes etc)

Think most will accept that in an ideal world, lovely old growth straight grain quartered and well seasoned build under good conditions and well built, should offer the best compromise between structural integrity and tone... but the 'history and life' of an instrument then has a big say in 'splits' and damage, whether from temps or humidy and general care - I have seen old instruments that have splits in the very best straight grained BRW, yet others of similar age in FS Birdseye Maple that are are fine and perfect - so whilst its easy to make a solid judgement on the knowledge of what is best, build quality etc, its what happens after that that often has the most impact...IMHO

I think most on here would agree that if it was freely available, straightgrained QS BRW and other high end tonewoods would be the most obvious choice. And despite looking less 'dramatic' look beautiful under a good finish. Demand for certain species, as others have mentioned has meant that wood is being used more commonly now that years ago may have been rejected... but with GOOD results, despite the excepted wisdom that says its less stable - possibly as more care is taken with the build and of the instrument by those that purchase and play them.

As to the asthetics... There surely can be no right or wrong. Taste is personal and its highly arrogant to assume that your own is best. Plain and simple can look wonderful, wild and exotic can look stunning. The art is in how these are combined and the overall look. And psychologically, I have to admit, instruments tend to become more beautiful to me if they sound stunning!

To dismiss other's taste, or style is a rejection of the individuality that makes instruments as wonderful and unique as the folk that build them.

David, Thanks for the pics. Now any from the other camp?

Kent, Is a few days enough to know what a board will do long term? That's enough for it to reach EMC. Now let it come and go with the RH. That's the true test IMO.

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So...
You never eyeballed a flat sawn top eh...well dudes eyeball this...

From the Benedetto book...




"Guitar serial #29293, made from inferior tone woods: Two-piece top carved from flatsawen construction grade 2' x 10" pine.
"Back carved from two piece flatsawn unmached maple, riddled with small knots, weather checking and discolouration. Sides and neck are plain maple."

"Despite the obvious, this guitar plays and sounds as good as
one made from expensive tone woods." ~ Making an Archtop Guitar... Robert Benedetto


Dudes, me been say it for years ...it ain't the wood ...its the luthier.

So why do we use quarter sawn...the bottom line answer is ..."its easier to build with."
No matter what the structural "advantages" of quartered wood may be touted as...its a cop out...the bottom line is "its way big time easier to build with quartered woods."
Why easier? Simple ...you really gotta know and understand what your doing if you use flat sawn and that knowledge don't come over night. Simple eh.

One day me gonna get around to scanning and posting some of me flat sawen builds...but not today.

Me really wish this hogwash myth of quartered top woods would simply die. I know it won't. Some myths like the tooth fairy and Santa Clause never die. Oh well.


Be
Padma

_________________
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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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I'll bite here, since this is an instance of a more general attitude I like to try to quash: that in matters of value there is only opinion, and everyone's is a good as everyone else's. Sometimes, more radically, this gets extended to matters of fact. IMO this is an unfortunate consequence of a change in education that took place in the 60's, in which the overriding value became one of everyone getting along, and everyone needing to be told that they are right. So all get medals, and there no longer is any such thing as excellence.

But I digress from the matter at hand. Sure, the assumption that one's own taste is best is arrogant. But that's a straw man, and it's an unwarranted leap from that to the conclusion that everyone's taste is equally good. Inherently subjective questions can have objective solutions if we look to intersubjective agreement. Even better, agreement among those with more experience and more diligence in studying the subject.

In particular, with functional objects, the visual characteristics of those that function best will, and should, over time come to be seen as aesthetically pleasing. You can see where this goes . . . .

_________________
Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

There seems to be a very small list of cuts that just don't work for one application or another.....

Lots of runout in certain wood (Like Sapele) for example makes side bending difficult.... Knots also can cause hang with side bending in certain areas.... Runout and Knots don't seem to cause structural problems on Backs, though -- they don't have to be hot-bent..... but unstable Knots and bark pockets in a back can loosen and pop out or crack....

Certain cuts seem to crack and split as they are effected by Humidity -- Crotch burl, knots, bark pockets, and End grain is a prime example of this.

Some things like Sap pockets on a sound board may be rejected because of the possibility of a weak grain line coming apart, or the sap buzzing once it finally dries out.

Super curly top wood has a reputation for bridges breaking off on tops unless it is carefully reinforced.... Etc...

Once you get past the rather small handful of cuts that you just "Can't Use" for some piece or another because they cause an inordinate amount of trouble..... you are left with a *WHOLE LOT OF WOOD* that is potentially usable in some way or another..... So.. Why isn't it used?

Tradition and Supply/Demand....

If you look at the history/tradition in Woodworking -- you find that some cuts were held in the highest esteem.... while others weren't.... Premium cuts in Furniture making spilled over into Instrument making... and viola!

For example -- Quartersawn, straight grain wood was considered the "Best" in Furniture making for a REALLY long time.... Stories abound in Australia, South America, and the US timber industries of thousands of GIANT trees with curly figure just being torched or dumped in the ocean en-masse.... It wasn't graded as "Acceptable" -- so they just burned it for firewood....

Perhaps some of this was based upon sound principles... Perhaps it was based on Supply and Demand -- There was an adequate supply of giant, straight grain trees... so there wasn't much demand for the Curly grain ones.... so they had to do something with it to get it out of the way....

Since that time, a few things have happened....
1. We logged off all of the HUGE trees.....
2. The advent of accurately controlled Kiln drying processes -- so frequently, even OLD lumber wasn't as dry as a builder would hope.... You might convince yourself that since it wasn't very dry -- it moved a whole lot... so they weren't taking chances.....
3. Most people with money in the world have decent Climate Control (AC/Heat and Humidity control)

Maybe it was better because it really is better...
Or... You might convince yourself that they just didn't use it because they didn't use it....

For example... Now -- Most cabinetmakers don't use Quartersawn wood if they can avoid it... Why? It splits when you drive screws and nails into it unless you are very careful.... and Staining it can be a pain... For the most part, they are perfectly happy for US to buy the Quartersawn wood and leave the Flat sawn wood for them.... and I am fairly happy that way too....

So.. Can you make a guitar entirely out of Flat sawn Wood? Sure.. For the most part, it works just fine.. Have at it....

Thanks

John

Cabinetmaking and Archtop experience with flatsawn woods is rather irrelevant for flatop and classical builders.
We break all the rules of cabinetmaking by gluing bracing across the width of the plates.
Archtops have no braces on the backs and only longitudinal or narrow angle X on the top.
Whilst storage conditions are important,I think we have a responsibility to future owners to produce an instument which is not likely to crack when used on stage for a few hours in dry conditions.
If you are going to use a wood off the quarter, check that its tangential shrinkage is not excessive. Real mahogany is one timber that has pretty low srinkage both radially and tangentially for example.
As for crotch cut wood with lots of short grain, well you take your chances when it comes to impact.

What sort of cabinetmakers don't use quartersawn wood if they can avoid it? And what sort of cabinetmaker drives nails into cabinet woods?* And they use stain? And screws? You mean for cabinet pulls, right? Certainly not for structure. Really, this aversion to quartersawn is a new one to me. But what do I know?

The world's gone to hell in a handbasket filled with pocket hole screws.



*other than Gary Knox Bennett

I feel like I have a responsibility to educate my clients, not to make a guitar that is invulnerable to humidity changes. If someone with one of my guitars flies from a humid NY summer to an AZ performance, opens the case and plays an outside gig in the breeze and the back cracks (or more likely the top ), that's not the guitar's fault. It's either my fault for not educating them or it's their negligence.



I think that's how this conversation got started. According to the reference I cited, Cocobolo and Honduras Mahogany share the exact same properties of humidity related movement. I would also bet that Cocobolo will react more slowly to changes in RH due to the fact that it's less porous and more dense, but that's just a guess.

But my point is, it's more than just the cut and the grain. It's seasoning, building, and the responsibility of the owner to take reasonable precautions.

And in my book, it's a myth that quartered straight grain is always less likely to split. Just look at the photo posted earlier. Not only are there multiple splits but they don't stop! Would a mixed grain back be worse? Who can say but it's clear to me that many straight, quartered woods, particularly Brazilian, are exceptionally brittle and I've never seen any indication that they split less often even if they move less.

_________________
http://www.chassonguitars.com

Jeff, well put!

I think the argument that new woods are available is a justification. The new woods will still be much more stable as quarter cut than any other. Yes, the quartered may be harder to find but worth the effort and time considering the amount of time it takes to make an instrument and how long it will be expected to last.

Padma, I expected the Beneditto knotty pine archtop to surface. This is a showpiece guitar and helped to prove that the builder makes the sound not the wood. Not that flat cut wood is just as good as quartered. Tone qualities of woods is for another post

Wildly figured woods have always been availiable but were normally turned into veneers for use because of economy and stability.

Hey Kent,
You said you had referred to some document on movement but I could not find the link in any of your posts on this thread. Could you repost, I would like to se that.
I have been referring to the shrinkulator and associated tables.
I absolutely agree we cannot make a guitar invulnurable, but I would think that using species or cuts which exibit high movement is asking for trouble.

Would'nt it also be your responsability to stear this client to the most stable piece of wood possible and inform them that that the piece of wood they love may not be a good chaoice for them long term?


It is not myth that quartered wood is ALWAYS more stable. (Cocobolo tangential=4, radial = 7) The reaction time to humidity has little to do with the density of the wood as humidity is taken in primarily through end grain.
The guitar in question is 160 years old. That is a testament to the wood selection and craftsmanship of Mr. Martin.

Cocobolo lists as 3% radial (quartersawn) and 4%tangential (flatsawn) so it is probably one of the better choices for using with a flatsawn cut

Here is a century old Spanish gutar where the top is quite flat sawn at the edges the lower bout. Remarkably , the top was still quite intact though the guitar had come apart pretty much everywhere else.

I like pretty things.

Figured woods are often pretty.

But there is also beauty in simplicity.

And variety is the spice of life. Or in this case, dead trees.

Using a bigger variety of species and figurings also means you won't waste as much trying to find only stuff that matches your specifications.

And Sir Padma is right, having all the knowledge of the internet available makes it so much easier to find out what works and what doesn't, without having to waste our precious time trying it for ourselves. I bet it has also made demand for crazy wood guitars go through the roof. How many people were even aware of such "zoot guitars" 20 years ago?

I use whatever wood speaks to me, and inspires an overall design for the shape and decorations and tone together. Looking through my stash, that seems to be mostly quartered stuff with pretty colors, and some with wavy/curly/swirly grain too. Or flatsawn if it's so pretty I'm willing to fix the cracks later.

Here's another web site that agrees cocobolo isn't far behind Honduran mahogany in tangential/radial expansion ratio: http://www.wood-database.com/wood-identification
However, Cuban mahogany makes them both look bad. Might as well just slab cut the whole log and get a lot more yield out of that one

Cuban mahogany: 1.2
Honduran mahogany: 1.4
Spanish cedar: 1.5
Cocobolo: 1.6

get some wood, let it sit for a few years,
decide if you want to use it,
then put it together.
ppffff!
maybe it'll sound good!

Dennis, I would probably be considering the actual shrinkage percentages rather than just the ratios in making decisions about suitability
Heres a handy table with it all together for comparison
http://www.woodbin.com/ref/wood/shrink_table.htm
Whilst these sort of shrinkage figures cannot be taken as absolutes for in service movement they are a guide which is useful unless you want to do your own testing of cross grain movement.

Yeah, I just didn't want to make too big of a table out of it. The absolute values for cocobolo were very similar to Honduran mahogany, just slightly smaller radial and slightly larger tangential. Thanks for the link though, looks like that site has slightly different values for everything, but for the most part agreeing.

Seems like the ratio would be the most important for mahogany and cocobolo at least, as it determines how hard it will want to cup versus simply contracting when humidity drops, and the softwood radial expansions are pretty close to matching the tangentials for those. So in theory, even with a fully quartered sitka top, a cocobolo back can be totally flatsawn and still maybe not crack first. Especially with the larger dome radius of the back and no strings yanking on it. Cupping seems like it would create more localized stresses, plus trying to snap the glue joints to the braces.

To those who do repair work, how often do you get cracked flatsawn backs with fully intact tops? How about cracked tops with fully intact flatsawn backs?

Flatsawn cocobolo splits. It must not have read the tables.

_________________
Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Quartered Brazilian apparently hasn't read them either.

_________________
http://www.chassonguitars.com

dang illiterate wood!
The edducattion system is letting us down.

I recently finished my first flatsawn rosewood (amazon) guitar, and unfortunately, not my last since I have a couple more similar madagascar sets in the stash.

Bottom line is that after i join a top or back, I break the offcuts in several pieces to test the joint, seek for potential weak grain lines and get an overall feel for the wood.
For this particular set, the flatsawn parts were breaking just by looking at them. The outer riftsawn and quarter bits were obviously harder to split.

So I braced and glued it at some 38-42% along some long prayers.

As for spruce and runout. Spruce with runout might sound just as good, but it sure isn't as break resistant and elastic. Split a nice brace and then cut an identical one inducing runout, then break them. The difference is big and after such a test the only reasonable conclusion is that runout in spruce is perfectly undesirable and should be avoided by all means.

_________________
Build log

Looking at the back (not the end grain) grain that comes together like this ///\\\ or this \\\/// makes a bad center seam joint. Straight grain has no end grain exposed and makes a more solid joint.

Hi Howard

Fair points, but perhaps more was read into my post than intended (a fault of the writer in this case, not the reader ) I was being perhaps quite specific to instrument builds and maybe a few examples may have illustrated the points a bit better. I guess, if you look at the diverse nature of the build asthetic from high end factories to the individual professional and amateurs alike on here, there is a huge diversity of styles and materials used - and each of us has a preference - some build 'in a Martin '45 tradition, dripping with Abalone - which is not to everyones 'taste' - the flip side to that is also evident with 'plain simple' builds - again some find this minimalism beautiful, others 'too boring' and I would argue that there is room for both and all inbetween as the 'function' as an instrument takes priority - in most cases - the beauty being more in the ear than the eye of this particular beholder!

That said, I do have preferences, although they tend to change quite frequently! I think we do need to maybe accept that opinion and taste ARE equaly valid IF based on the experience and education of that individual. As we learn more, we can appreciate more - Good example from the artworld is perhaps cubism. Learn about what it is all about, and the beauty is revealed, and I would suggest that understanding leads to appreciation which helps define and evolve our taste? So for me all opinion/taste is valid if placed within the context of knowledge?

I would say as I got older, I 'learned' to appreciate the simpistic beauty of a prewar 000-18, appreciate the patina in an 1840s French Parlour or the 'odd' shape of an early Lacote... soomething taht would have been dismissed when in late teens or early 20s.

There is also the impact of the passion and enthusiasm of others we respect for greater knowledge, that 'rubs off' - so I would stand by what I said in that opinions ARE equally valid, but with the caveat that they evolve based on experience. So are my 'tastes' in guitar better now in my 40s?

I would naturally say yes. Going back on topic, perhaps the issue with the more 'exotic' looking specimens is influenced in part by 'tradition', by the theories of what makes a good instrument, and...if I dare mention it, most builders are wood snobs! ? - there is an arrogance based on the accumulation of knowledge and experience, and if customers/shops are demanding instruments built from what many class as inferior is because they lack education and knowledge?

... PS I am not into bling myself, but do like the natural beauty of some swirling grain under finish... but whetehr this builds a decent instrument is almost a seperate debate, and from what has been seen in this post already, one of obvious varied opinion!

I've seen a good amount of Brazilian and never noticed that quartered Braz is more split prone than other rosewoods, with the exception of EIR. The most unstable Braz sets I've seen are definitely the ones going from rift to flat, and some of the stump stuff (but not all). The most brittle Braz I've seen is some of the black stuff, regardless of the cut.
We all know quartersawn wood exhibits much less movement with RH changes than flat-sawn, and that tension wood will invariably be unstable, without exception, so why argue about it? Mahogany and a handful of other species are much more forgiving, still, the quarter cut is favoured in all cases where stability is the main concern.
It is obvious that we will see signs of damage and repair on antique instruments, regardless of the wood species.
When Baroque and Romantic guitar builders wanted to use wild figure, and/or flat-sawn stock (as in bird's eye maple), they invariably laminated the inside with a layer of spruce. However there are plenty of examples of fiddles with flat sawn backs, but the width is minimal compared to a guitar, and the plate is carved. BTW perfectly flatsawn is much preferable to rift IMHO.
I have a good amount of cocobolo in the shop, as I often use it for trim. Invariably the rift and flat sawn pieces cup, move and some eventually crack. I will add that I am almost fanatical about maintaining a constant RH.
Traditionally woodworkers always used the most stable woods they could obtain, it is for a reason that seasoned wood is more expensive and sought after. In cabinet making, as in instrument making, wild figure is always used as a veneer with a solid substrate (ply in modern times).
The Benedetto arch top is comparable to the Torres papier-mâché guitar: as has been said, they're testaments to the builders' skills, and not to the virtues of flat-sawn knotty pine or papier-mâché. A " tour de force" in other words. Otherwise both would have continued their careers building with sub-par materials…
I agree with Howard about the absurdity of relativism when pushed at its extreme: even if there are grey zones, some things are obviously better than others.
It is a testament of the malaise of our times that we are perfectly willing to distort reality in order to accommodate incongruous statements for the sake of avoiding conflict and raising the illusion of tolerance.

I think it is John Hall who wrote once that information on the forums is free, and you get what you pay for…

_________________
Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

perhaps not so much...

I'll say it another way - The internet is the world's greatest source of misinformation.

-jd