Official Luthiers Forum!

first post here for me. I'm building #1, know a lot more about wood than lutherie. 20+ years ago I extensivly researched lutherie, reading every book I could get. The common theme in them about wood selection was, quartered, defect free, staight grained. I realize there are many figures in wood that fit the previous qualities but I see a lot of B&S set pics using flat cut wood and recently Cocobolo that could only be stump or root stock, normally relegated to decorative use only. What has changed in 20 years? Not wood properties. Is it a difference between pro and amature philosophies or is this the look that people are after despite the possible long term problems?
Also, if anyone has pics of old important guitars made from such woods I'd love to see them.
Thanks

Yup, quartered, defect free, straight grained is still the common theme in wood selection ~ for the top.

Now regarding backs and sides...well what ever spins wheels is about the size of it.


blessings
Padma

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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I will disagree with and say for guitars, the straightest, quartersawn backs and sides you can find. Don't care much for wild figure as you can have problems of stability with it.

I've seen a zillion knotty flat root-en backs used by some of the most respected and known builders. I guess looks come first. You need something to feed the dealers with, so they can claim "extremelly dramatic figure".

At my amateur level I very much prefer B&S that is as QS and low in runout as possible (interlocked excepted). I don't consider flatsawn areas and knots and so on to be "figure", they are actually defects. Maybe my aesthetics sense is twisted, but I like how a uniform color tight grained hardwood set looks, structural issues aside.

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Build log

I like quartered, straight even grain and color when I can get it for all the structural and stability advantages previously mentioned.
A big part of my preference though is aesthetic.
I prefer to add my own statement using various treatments in the rosette, bindings, purfling as well as back strip treatments etc.
I look for wood that won't make a strong statement on its own but will form an elegant backdrop for what I want to say with the trim.

Really wild grain figure can interfere with the visual aspects of the form as well, form being the most critical part of the success of any design.

My dear esteemed friend Haans,

may me most humbly point out that we in fact are in total agreement with Padma as
my statement was and still is

You most kindly offered your preference as to "what spins your wheels" and even went on to offer an excellent reason, which me also agree with.

So my dear friend, me fail to see the disagreement.


Perhaps this all arises from the OP'ers question of needing clarification of
"what is" the current practice as opposed to "what should be"

Personally, Padma don't pay no attention to them there "what is or what "should be's"
instead choosing to do my own thing while always paying attention to whatever me intuits be needed to compensate for the nature of the woods chosen. This affliction don't come over night and takes years of building to acquire. It also came at a price of being declared after the neighbors repeatedly witnessed me dancing neekid around the sacred fires of purification while offering up the rejects. You know, quality control.



blessings
Padma

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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Build log

Ah, my friend , perchance too early in the mornin' for me usin' that word. T'wasn't disagreein' I meant. T'was opine'n...
The vision of your form of "quality control" leaves a bit to be desired in my mind, so I will offer up my own form of QC...

Oh, yes, and my idea of pretty good wood...

Thanks for the input guys!



Alexandru, I'd like to see pics or references. Not show pieces, but made for sale by Martin, Torres, Somogyi, Anderson et. al.



Fillipo, I would not consider curl figure as wild. If flat sawn maple is pretty stable, quartered is that much better (rock Maple T=9 R=5). Why even consider FS for use in an accoustic? Compression/Reaction wood will check, cup etc. it is a matter of when, not if.



Padma, My only question is "what has changed?". Is it disregard for the knowledge gained by the masters of their craft? Lack of knowledge?


I would agree that if you are building for yourself, use whatever you want, but be prepared for it to self implode.

What has changed ? Nothing as far as the wood.

Customers are increasingly demanding more dramatic wood. Helps set their customer luthier built instrument apart from those built by the production houses.

luthiers want (need) to build and sell guitars, so they build what sells.


-jd

Thank you for the clarification Partick.

Now me thinks me understand and as such IMNSHO....thinks its not the "Disregard for the Knowledge" that has lead to divergence of the straight and narrow, level and on the square selection of grained woods but just the opposite.

Because Of our current mass devolving cultures instant (just add water) w.w.w. based knowledge banks and avatars we generally now know how to deal with all sorts of wild cards in wood and designs that spawned the changes you observe. I also believe it to be a some what relative thing because the "master builders were always there." Its just that now with the advent of the puter, and the hoards of tuners and strings being manufactured to meet the demand, we are seeing the funkie stuff more and more.



Maybe 20 ~30 years back this was more true, however with sites like OFL and the mass of grey matter instantly available, the reality of a self implode have been almost eliminated.

In luthier its more of what you know and knowing how to find it if you don't know it, than who you know, cuz like a 2 min registration fill out and your avatar now has access to hundreds of other avatars that all gotts their 2 cents to share.


So me answer to your question Patrick...."knowledge"
"we have now evolved into the age of knowledge, and as such I, me Padma hopes to live long enough to see the age of peace, loving kindness, and wisdom blossom forth as we transition into a sustainable ever emerging collective consciousness on this planet."

They say (you know them) that its just around the corner.


blessings
Padma

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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Possibly what has changed is that people have realized that straight, quartered wood is often less resistant to splitting than other cuts so in reality, it splits just as often? That's certainly been my experience in handling wood. I can't speak from actual experience though because out of about 80 guitars built with quartered, mixed grain, and high figure, I've never had a back or side split (at least that I know of).

Maybe people have realized that the character of the individual piece, the seasoning, the humidity of the shop, and the care of the finished instrument are more important than the cut of the wood?

I'm also curious where all these imploding guitars are. I see plenty of builders with more than my 15 years of experience who continue to use highly figured wood, year after year. It's hard for me to imagine that they keep having warranty issues yet choose to keep using it.

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Now dang it Haans, it's bad enough looking at all your wonderful builds, but now you flaunt your wood stash!

Looks like you've been doing pretty good in the Easter egg hunt,
Joe

Flame and/or curl will appear much more dramatically on the quarter, so the problem is resolved. Bird's eye and quilt, OTOH, only appear on the flat sawn cut. Early guitar makers were wise enough to laminate the inside of bird's eye backs, usually with spruce. Although stable enough, IME maple is not the most stable wood, especially flat sawn. All that won't make the guitar implode though…
The first assumption is false, of course. Rarely do guitars implode, especially if not triggered by explosives. However, if the quartersawn cut tends to split more easily that the flat sawn cut, it is much more stable, and in some woods, stronger. All that allows to thin the plates further. I can think of many highly figured woods which are weaker than their plain looking counterparts. In my mind the better guitar is constructed with woods than can brought to an ideal thickness without worrying about integrity.
Personally I tend to avoid highly figured stuff, preferring the relative calm of straight, beautiful grain. Curl or flame are something else, of course, and I generally consider bearclaw to be a good sign for conifers. But a lot of that outrageously figured stuff looks like more work to me, and distracting, if not entirely Gaudy, crude and an illustration of poor taste.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

Thanks to all for their input, especially to you pros who set the bar and have to stand behind your work for many years!
I have learned something today! Always a good thing.

Padma: carry on with the good thoughts. Glad I'm not your neighbor on bonfire nights!

Implode was a poor choice of words. A problem waiting to happen would have been better.

One of the author/ builders I liked best said that the best guitars are built "on the edge" (paraphrased) Is this mythe, personal opinion or the concensus?

Kent: I looked at your site and you do fine work. I would not argue with your experience. The post "figure so fine" actually is what prompted this one. In it you talk about set #816 with concern over its stability. When I look at sets like this I think nice looking but I would not trust it stay check free through seasonal changes.

What has changed? Two related things.

1. Dealers discovered that customers are attracted to wild figure, and even will believe that these are superior sets.

2. The best wood by old school standards is getting harder to find. Brazilian rosewood has probably led the way, with people selling off dregs that would not have been used at all 30-40 years ago, and calling them great sets (especially on Ebay).

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Well Laurent,

Again me must accord you the privilege to think what thou wilt.

Different strokes...

However me will not concur with your preferences in believing that
all the "wonderfully distracting, gaudy and crude gained woods ", that have been
created by the Divine, are there for us to simply ignore fashioning into instruments of poor tastes and other assorted BLING to be flashed around on stage while offering up songs of praise unto him.

"a lot of that outrageously figured stuff looks like more work to me"
"without worrying about integrity."

Me thinks this is more the revealing truth Laurent...laziness based upon worry and the fear of failure.

As such, I will agree, it is easier to build bland, and develop a cop out, put down line of reasoning to justify ones own inabilities. It 's Ok Laurent...not all of us gotts what it takes to live on the edge and take the chance.

Besides, I agree there is a beauty in simplicity.
However Me,...
me prefer B L I N G

blessings
Padma

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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To each his own, but count me in the 'understated elegance' camp.

Aside from the intuitive structural soundness of quartersawn and tight-grained wood slices...

When I first began woodworking, I could be dazzled by wood's variegational vagaries on the halfshell. Today, though, I favor the subtlety of quieter quartersawn stripings and even-grained homogeneously-toned woods. Give me the plainest pear anyday. While I can certainly admire artful restrained touches of thuya, satinwood, snakewood, and so on, the cocobolo bookmatches I've recently encountered are exceeded in aesthetic obscenity only by their prices. The garishness of these diseased orchids, these medical book gynecological grotesques leave me thoroughly Rohrshached.

I don't trust any piece of wood until I've had my hands and eyes on it, seen how flat it stays after resawing, lived with it awhile. I've got some perfectly quartered, straight Brazilian that is as squirrely as any wood I've ever seen. I just spoke with a builder on Friday who was bummed when he pulled a nice piece of quartered Brazilian out of the bender to find it riddled with splits that a close pre-bending inspection didn't reveal.

I'm curious why you wouldn't trust that piece of Cocobolo to "stay check free through seasonal changes"? Would you trust a piece of quartered Sitka? Quartered Ebony? Quartered big leaf Maple? According to the web site I listed above, all of those would experience more humidity related movement than flat sawn Cocobolo, much more in some cases.

I don't do a ton of repair work but one thing I've noticed is that splits show up a lot more often on guitars that have other damage. The inference I make is that abuse is probably the most common reason for splits. And I see more tops split than backs which makes sense given the other stresses involved and the fact that spruces tend to move much more than typical back woods.

Laurent, I totally agree that function comes first but in my world view of the function of backs, the mass I want to achieve tends to limit how thin I can go more than the stiffness does.

As for aesthetics, I can go either way. As John Prine says, "You come home straight"



"And you come home curly"

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As a professional repairman, I too can attest to the fact that the most splits appear in the tops of guitars, rather than the backs and sides. It's also true that tops are more likely to be well quartered than backs and sides. Is there a correlation?
I don't know. Maybe it's just the fact that top woods change dimension more dramatically than back and side woods, quartered or not.
In my repair career, I've heard flatsawn high runout soundboards that sounded GREAT, and I've heard perfectly chosen materials that sounded HORRIBLE, and everything in between.
Maybe what's changed in 20 years is that as the supply of affordable perfectly cut woods have dwindled and builders have turned more towards less perfect pieces, including the "dregs", luthiers have discovered that for all the wood selection and planning that you can do, the guitar will sound as the guitar feels like sounding, and all we can really do is build it with the cleanest, strongest joints and processes that we can, and hope for the best. Might as well use the prettiest woods in your opinion you can find, be it strict uniformity of grain and color, or wild colorful rainbow explosions of figure and grain.
I recently installed a sidemount preamp in a fabulous sounding acoustic and discovered for the owner that his wonderful instrument had laminated sides, at least. He was shocked, since he was in love with how the instrument sounded and was convinced that it MUST be solid rosewood.
Interesting.
I wonder if the revelation affected how he hears the instrument?

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Old growth, shmold growth!

After scaning the replys this may be the case, as all but one Pro Sided with quatered, straight grain (stable material) over figure.

Theguitarwisperer: good food for thought, but I think Sound Quality is a different discussion.

No one has yet supplied a picture of a historical guitar for refference. I'd still love to see some. If they do not existi can think of several reasons why.
Thanks

In the case of this set, I would return it right away if I had immediate doubts. I happened to receive the set this afternoon and it looks good. Very flat, no surface checks or end checks, great tap tone. Only problem is a blip where there is some runout in one corner and that can get cut off. I stickered it and if it remains flat for a couple of days, I'll take that as a sign that it's not reaction wood and keep it. It's actually quartered in the middle and goes to flat which is typical of wood with spider-webbing.

But it does get expensive with Brazilian and that's why the markup is so big today.

And yes, I do tend to build mostly with quartered wood but I simply happen to disagree that quartered is always best, either structurally or tonally. No big deal, builders disagree about a lot of things....

As for the pros in this thread who said they prefer quartered, straight grain...it looks like one just bought this flat sawn quilted Sapele. viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=28841

Hmmmmmm....

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http://www.chassonguitars.com

Historic Guitars:

Martin and Coupa C.1840


!839 Antonio De Lorca


Antonio Torres 1864


1914 Martin 5-21


1954 Robert Bouchet


1850's Martin Renaissance

I have yet to see a guitar built with a flatsawn soundboard.

Ken, every builder has his or her own methodology, of course. Mine leads me to considerably thin "heavy" rosewoods such as cocobolo, Honduran RW and African blackwood to give a few examples, until they sound and feel "right" for the type of bracing I use. On single O type guitars my backs are routinely in the .060" / .065" range.
I can't help but notice that on both your pics the sets seem to be well quartered. Very nice work BTW.

I built a good number of cocobolo guitars, and find it to be very stable. However the only time I had cracks was with a back going from quartersawn to flat-sawn. The set was stable before and during the build BTW, and was far from being "wild", just straight grain cocobolo. The cracks appeared right at the edge of the quartersawn part a few months after the guitar was built. A costly lesson.
IME Honduran mahogany and sapele are as stable (and strong) flat-sawn or quartersawn.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/