Official Luthiers Forum!

Why yes I do know this is a very broad question. I need to get started building and selling but I can't tell where to start. I'd like to know what sources are best for selling a new maker's instruments. In the forseeable future I can see me making electric instruments and mandolins.

I can only tell you about my own experience. During the nineties, back when I was a player and did the occasional repair and setup, but was not yet an aspiring builder, I worked in a Martin dealership that had a few instruments in stock, built by local builders. They were built heavy, were sorta strange looking (IMO) and they sat there for years. As I've wondered whether or not I can sell my own, I've often thought that I don't want that to happen to mine. I'm sure those builders had built many, many instruments. Maybe they didn't care so much that those were just sitting there. But as a new builder of just a few, I want to make mine useful and desirable. The opposite of that, an instrument that is undesirable or unloved, is like death.

I happen to know a lot of good guitar players. When I built my first guitar, I went out of my way to let everyone play it. One of those friends asked me to build him one, and he paid for it, up front. He has known me for about 15 years and has played my instruments over the years. He knew what he was getting. I did it cheap. I've spent the last 10 months making that guitar as good as I can get it. I've probably made less than $1/hr. But this friend of mine is a pro player. If he uses the guitar (and he will, because it's a good un), others will see him play it...another plus.

Two other friends of mine saw the progress on that guitar on my blog and asked me to build them one. I charged a little more for those. Those guitars are both in-progress now. So I'm working on the friends market. Soon it will be friends-of-friends.

I'm trying to gradually build up to a place where I'm gaining experience and will gradually be able to deliver a top quality product. I'm now confident I can produce a guitar that sounds good, and is setup well. but my finishing abilities look like a first-time french polisher. the owners of my #2 and #3 don't mind that, and I was up front about it. my #4 will go to Joe White.

Your instruments will sell if they are a lot like things folks are familiar with (Martins and Gibson), and they are good. Once you gain a reputation you can be more creative, but my sense is that you still won't sell as many as someone that makes copies of Martins and Gibsons.

Usually folks that start a business will often hit the ground running, in terms of marketing. They'll buy a product wholesale, or produce it themselves, and market the heck out of it. Instrument building is different for the new luthier, because the learning curve is so steep. Making s or widgets is a totally different ballgame than building a guitar. I don't want to market anything, until what I'm marketing is world class. So I'm playing it safe with friends, that know me well, know what they are getting, and know up front that there might be some tweaking and finish flubs involved.

If you can make killer guitars that don't look strange, you will sell them.

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"...you have to get over your strict adherence to your largely imagined notion of absolute perfection..."

Great advice man I appreciate it. I'm open to more!

Try prayer.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

And try it often!

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

If you want to get into selling your guitars you need a reality check . Few people will start building and selling right off. I started 10years ago and had to make the circuit where people that played guitars would go . The first few guitars were sold at a price that wan't very profitable but I got my name out there. If I had it to do over again I wouldn't do that.
You can also try boutique stores. Best to grow a thick skin as often , early builders may think they have a good product , only to find that it may be average at best as compared to professional builders. Success doesn't happen over night . So with that ,try some local stores and boutique places and see what happens . You may be pleasantly surprised or at least get an education .
I have seen builders with 2 or 3 under their belt at guitar shows and it can be hurtful , but keep trying . Critique not criticism can be very helpful . Find out what the public wants and build to suit the market . Pricing can be difficult at first . So good luck to you and I wish you well. Competition is tough out there .

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

LOTS AND LOTS OF CASH !!!!!

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The Shallower the depth of the stream , The Louder the Babble !
The Taking Of Offense Is the Life Course Of The Stupid One !
Wanna Leave a Better Planet for our Kids? How about Working on BETTER KIDS for our Planet !
Forgiveness is the ability to accept an apology that you will probably NEVER GET
The truth will set you free , But FIRST, it will probably Piss you Off !
Creativity is allowing yourself to make Mistakes, Art is knowing which ones to Keep !
The Saddest thing anyone can do , is push a Loyal Person to the point that they Dont Care Anymore
Never met a STRONG person who had an EASY past !
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My advice FWIW...Consider giving away your first 10 instruments to accomplished players and following their progress for 5 years. If they remain playable, stable and are still loved by their owners you just might have a product that players will be willing to purchase. The road is littered with failed builders who entered the market way too early as well as with remorseful buyers who unfortunately got what they payed for. Both regrettable and avoidable circumstances do an injustice to those who have worked hard to develop and prove their skills and ultimately produce legitimate products.

Good luck...hopefully you'll work hard and make the right decision.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

I think what is being gotten at here is........ Don't

Unless you've been building for a while and have at least a dozen under your belt, preferably more, the odds are very likely any product you turn out right now will be inferior in both tone and fit and finish. The quality of work guys and gals are turning out these days is staggering. Go to healdsburg next year and take a look at the instruments. Luthiers these days are amazing with what they can do in tone, looks, and playability.

Don't be in a rush to start selling your instruments. I wish I could take back my first 40 I put out there to be completely honest. What you consider good right now you'll consider horrid years from now. Educated buyers will either a) Not buy your instruments, or b) buy one and have buyers remorse. Even worse in this day and age is someone gets on a forum and says it like it is and that could, possibly irreversibly, screw up your reputation, or the chances of ever getting a good one.

This is, of course, a generalization of newcomers work. You could be the best Luthier to ever walk this planet and skip the whole learning curve thing and jump straight into legendary status, but the odds seem far fetched to me.

Put in your dues. Learn the craft on your own dime, and when you're good enough then start selling them if you want to.

Just a bit of advice from a guy who tried to do what it sounds like you are contemplating.

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John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

I have no problem with all the advise given - but what do you do with the first 10, 20 or 40 ? I have no room in my house to hang them all up. At least I wouldn't be permitted.
Should they be given away ?

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It's this new idea from recent decades that everyone gets a participation award. - MUX

In my opinion....yes. Give them to family, or friends if you can't or don't want to keep them.

I know I'm sounding like the grouch here, but I've been there. I wish I would have kept, destroyed, or given away to family my early work.

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John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

I sold a bunch of my earlier ones off real cheap and now I wish I didn't because my new stuff is SOOOO much better than my old stuff, but people still judge me by my old stuff, and then want the new stuff as cheap as the old stuff. I've given away a couple of guitars to great players who play professionally, some of them high profile players. Nada, even though they love their guitar and have played their guitar every weekend for even ten years now.
It seems to me nowadays that the guitarists interested in custom guitars also become interested in being luthiers, and with all the information (and MISinformation) out there on the internet, it's not hard to put out an instrument.
It IS hard to stand out, especially in a market where there are a LOT of hobbyist builders trying to make a name for themselves giving their guitars away for nothing, and then people think that's what the market values them all at. I'm sorry, I can't sell my guitars for $800 or less since even the materials cost more than that, but that's what the local market here pays because of all the hobbyists. If someone's willing to pay more than that, they just go down to the local GC and buy a Strat or a Les Paul, since the resale on those is higher.
Truthfully, I haven't spent a lot of time marketing my guitars, I've used my skills as a luthier to promote and build up my repair business instead.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

And, - a suggestion- don't put your name in it unless you want your starting reputation to be built on that guitar.

start with trying to sell them for what it cost you for the material until you feel they are worth more. the first I sold, was to a friend of mine, its now in my shop for repairs, as the bridge was coming loose, I thought it was great built but now I see I should have paid more attention to details.

Lars

Lars yer the best. I'll do that first. I got me some really neat ideas I haven't seen done yet, and I've been looking, so I'll sneak those in as I go. The real challenge is that yeah all musicians are poor, and crazy. I know this because I too am a musician and share those very qualities myself,

I figure as long as I have enough money to keep building I'll be ok. I'll just have to figger out how to fund everything else.

for me I met a woman out of this world who fills my soul. so I can only say good comments right now hahaha.

Lars

+1

Quoted for Truth

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John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

yeah, that works...

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

There are 4 ways I have sod mine-

guitars shows
stores
word of mouth
ebay

I know your question is about what to do with the guitars, but there's a lot anyone that wants to get into it, can do to bring that number down. refrets, setup, repair your own, and friends'. watch a good repairman for years and ask them lots of questions. get a job doing repairs. read everything first. It could help to build a bunch of electric parts guitars first, as all you have to do is put them together with a screwdriver and then you get to set em up.

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"...you have to get over your strict adherence to your largely imagined notion of absolute perfection..."

Ahhhh... the 10,000 hour rule. I have often thought about how that applies to our craft. But it isn't JUST 10,000 hours. It is 10,000 hours applied with the purpose of GETTING BETTER. So you just can't mechanize the process and repeat for 5 years. But I agree... I think it would be interesting to dig into an unscientific study of those in our craft to see how many hours they have logged and how many everyone thought it took to get decent at building.

Regarding selling your instruments, here is my .02 worth

* Don't sell the first dozen or so, no matter how good you think they are
* If you are determined to let them out of your posession, don't put your name on them.
* When you are ready start attending shows and check out other people's work to see how yours compares
* Get into shows
* Consider sponsoring sites where players hang out
* Think about doing a road trip guitar.
* Ask happy customers for reviews in public places

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

I've just finished my first and am starting into # 2 and 3. I figure I'll be keeping one of them and giving one to a nephew. After that, I've already lined up 4 friends who are commissioning guitars for the cost of materials and a really good bottle of scotch.

Geez, just finished my first guitar and already I've got a build list. What's the trick to this business?

Steve

The trick is to keep that build list as well as your price list growing, good luck!!

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Tickle your guitar daily, and it'll tickle you back.

All good advice here Brock, these are the basic tools that I have used for the most part and they do work.

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Tickle your guitar daily, and it'll tickle you back.

I commonly repeat this very important point -- beware of your own ego. Why is it that ALL of us always think our instruments are pretty good, then years later look back and think, "Man, I sure had a long way to go!". It is human nature to be proud of one's own labor and that pride can blind us from looking objectively at our work.

As other's have mentioned, unless you are unnaturally gifted in fine woodworking -- your first few instruments will absolutely be sup-par in many respects. I personally believe that you want a killer product before you start marketing your work. I also wish I had waited a bit longer before I started working with dealers because I think some of my early "professional" guitars were ugly. Regardless, I was objective with myself enough to realize that my work needed a lot of artistic improvement as well as figuring out what I wanted my instruments to sound like -- because of this, I purposely stayed under the radar for a few years trying to really refine my product.

I think the smartest advice is to just build for material costs + a little extra for shop expenses - that way you won't be losing anything other than your time.

And lastly, all of wish you the very best of luck. This forum is a great place to look for help and advice on your path to building great instruments!!!

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Simon