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I recorded the sound when a guitar was vibrated by a TR or an aqua pump and analyzed the files with cooledit. Beside 60Hz and its serial harmonics, ToneRite has another set, which contains 134Hz and its multiples. An aqua pump has only 60Hz and its harmmonics. The soft rubber of TR absorbs lots of higher frequency, no wonder they came up wuth a new version recently.

Was the TR at full output when you measured the frequencies and if so was it much louder then the pump. I though of building a pump style TR copy but the noise of the tone rite above about 1/2 power was quite irritating the hum was heard through the whole house. I get in enough trouble with the family without several days of noise.

Fred

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Fred Tellier
http://www.fetellierguitars.com
Facebook page http://www.facebook.com/pages/FE-Tellier-Guitars/163451547003866

My ToneRite was at maximum power.At full output the pump is about 5.7 dB louder than TR, and it's about as loud as the TR at half output.

Probably not, Todd. Don't know anyone who has one.

Yeah - So, does the pump work just as well as the TR?

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Steve Sollod (pronounced sorta like "Solid")
www.swiftcreekguitars.com

You could always build a small soundproof chamber.

I really can't see how a specific frequency would be so critical to the success or failure of this concept. Remove all the hype from what you read at a commercial website and look at what is probably going on. The appliance, be it a TR or an aquarium pump, is placed in contact with the bridge/strings to become an actuator. It is my opinion that the affect of the resulting vibrations being transfer into the guitar top over an extended period of time cause friction at an atomic level which acts upon the lignin in the wood to relax it somewhat. This relaxation of the lignin, if true, may assist the top to then move more freely after treatment, especially at the perimeter where larger oscillations would most probably have occurred as a result of higher frequency oscillations radiating out from the bridge where bracings are most substantial. If this 'relaxed lignin' theory is indeed true, then there is further potential benefits for tone and response in the release of those tensions which may be captured within the many individual components of the top by allowing them to spread evenly throughout the whole. It is a combination of both these things that I believe is taking place when a guitar is 'played in' over a long period of time and the effects of the TR/Aquarium pump simply excellerates that normal development.

Back to the point at hand, within reason I do not see how one specific frequency could make that much difference to the outcome. I recall reading the TR website at some stage when this thing first came to light. The general gist was that years of research had revealed that 60Hz was the golden number if you bought a unit in the USA, coincidentally that is the very same number cycles of the USA power supply. In the FAQ's area on the same site it was suggested to an international enquirer that the golden number for Europe was 50Hz, which coincides perfectly with their supply cycles....So is there really any magic number? My guess is 'no', it is just a matter of vibrating the top for what ever period of 'time' it takes to achieve the required atomic disruption at whatever the frequency output is of your chosen actuator. This is of course within reason, too high may take too long, on the other hand I would not advice employing a jackhammer.

Cheers

Kim

I suppose the pump works better because it simply has much more higher frequency content, but I could be wrong. A guitar with too many highs may not always be a good thing, tho. Perhaps a TR is more neutral than a pump.

Why would you conclude that a guitar exposed to a higher frequency during any sort of treatment would be imparted with a higher frequency?? That just does not make any sense at all. Its much like saying that someone who had been run down buy a truck will be able to carry more weight should they recover than one who had been hit by a Ferrari, but the later will be able to run much faster and will do red better than anyone in the room.

Amazing things these forums

Cheers

Kim

If all of this is an attempt to "open up" the guitar artificially (I am not sure I understand, it sounds quite technical) my method is to place a young guitar strung up in front of my shop cd player and load up the first five Rush albums and let it rip. It really does a nice job and works for both classical and steel strings. My preferred frequencies include Led Zeppelin, ZZ Top, Megadeath, and "Tarrega" by Colin Symonds.

Of course, if you are doing something else with these devices then by all means never mind.

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http://www.booneguitars.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Stephen-Boone-guitar-builder/488208541257210

I guess I'm just old fashioned, but my way is to play the instrument, then give it to someone else to play. I really don't like short-cut methods. There is no substitute for letting a player break in his won guitar. If the guitar doesn't sound good off the bench, then it never will. Yes it will mature, but it will not go from being mediocre to being good.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

I found that using a tone rite on the last 2 guitars I completed that it takes the guitar to the point of having been played for a couple or 3 months. I was happy with the results as it provides a sort of instant gratification, I found that the guitars keep opening up with playing so the tone rite does not do it all. As for frequencies I feel that any vibration will help the guitar, but I liked the ability to turn down the tone rite as I found the 60hz tone quite irritating. That all said the one I used was borrowed and don't know if I would bother purchasing one.

By the way I also tried it on a guitar I only play a few times a month and heard no change after treatment, though their web site claims great things will happen.

Fred

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Fred Tellier
http://www.fetellierguitars.com
Facebook page http://www.facebook.com/pages/FE-Tellier-Guitars/163451547003866

I also believe that player inevitibly imprints their sound into their guitars. The question is can everyone do a better job than a pump or a ToneRite? The answer is no. Like vibrators for women, a ToneRite or a pump has its advantages and limitations. That's all.

Along the same lines as the Tonerite, but more pleasant sounding, is the idea of using the guitar as a 'speaker' for your favourite tunes:
http://www.ukuleles.com/Technology/HulaGirlShaker.html

Cheers
John

Kim wrote:
"It is my opinion that the affect of the resulting vibrations being transfer into the guitar top over an extended period of time cause friction at an atomic level which acts upon the lignin in the wood to relax it somewhat. "

I didn't know it was tense?

Seriously, there is a certain amount of built-in stess in all woods; the cellulose fibers are 'pre-stressed in tension before the lignin glue is laid down, so the lignin could indeed be under some stress. It's an interesting theory.

One thing that tells against it is that the built-in stress level falls over time, so an instrument made of old wood should sound 'played in' right out of the box if the stress level is what's doing it. My experience is that instruments made of old wood still sound new, although they may 'play in' faster than ones made of new wood.

I expect the actual process of playing involves more than one mechanism, and I'd bet that one of the things tha happens is micro-fracturing within the lignin bonds. another suggestion has to do with hemicellulose dgradation being speeded up by the heat of vibration.

The frequency mix probably matters, in that driving a resonant mode of the guitar is going to give yo more amplitude for a given input of power, and these modes occur at given frequencies. Of course, you can drive things off resonance: otherwise the guitar would only make sound at three or four notes in the open string tuning range, and that would not be very satisfactory. The ToneRite, or aquarium pump, with a basic pitch of 60 Hz, has overtones close enough to the 'main air' pitch at 90-100, and the 'main top' near 200, to get them going. Like John, I prefer to use music for this: it's more pleasant and probably just as effective.

The 'old wood' example would indeed be telling however it fails to consider the new stresses introduced when the guitar is at first strung up. I think the reason why 'old wood' guitars play in more quickly than one made with less seasoned wood is because they only have that stress from the strings to deal with, where as each component made of newer less stable wood must also deal with its own internal stresses.

It may just a be my unscientific terminology Alan but to me any "micro-fracturing within the lignin bonds" would cause the wood to 'relax', be less stiff, less resistant to vibration so I think we are saying much the same thing.

Cheers

Kim

I used a Tonerite recently on a 12 month old guitar, I was skeptical at first but it definitely changed the tone - the jury is out on whether it changed for the better.

J

I hate to steer you all away from this excellent site, but here's a loooong, and quite interesting thread about "Tonerite questions", on Mandolin Cafe. The thread eventually got shut down, as this seem to be one of those topics that tend to get hot.

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?47418-Tonerite-questions

BTW, I’ve been doing the aquarium pump thing on new instruments lately, and I like what it does. It seems to me like the instruments reach their potential sooner with this aid. One can only hope that it doesn’t use it up in the process.

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

I'm with ya there Arnt....played in, and then played out, that is a real danger. Like everything else I suppose, too much can be worse than none at all.

Cheers

Kim

Ah, but that assumes that reular playing and the Tonerite / aquarium pump treatment stimulates the tops equally, which I don't think they do.

Personally, I don't think these devices squander much of the "tone producing life" of instruments, if any, but how can you know for sure? Anyways, I'm willing to risk it, as the way I see it, it probably only takes away some of its less interesting, juvenile tone producing life...

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

Kim, most misicians I know believe that guitars will open up by playing, and some of them even believe that it will "tint" a guitar's sound by letting a guy with lousy right hand plucking technique play it for just a few minutes. If the above statement is true, then two guitar vibrators with different spectrums/properties would likely have different opening-up effects. There's nothing to do with how a guy would transform when he was banged by a truck, a Ferarri, or one of the superheros.

I have no problem at all in believing that guitars 'open up' with playing. I know that they do and that should be evident from my above comments which suggest that the TR/Aquarium pump treatment will accelerate the process. I also know that 'some' guitarist do indeed believe that allowing a bad player to play their instrument will somehow effect the tone in a negative way, and that the reverse is also true. That is to say that some really lousy players believe that having a famous guitarist name on their instrument, a signature model, will somehow make 'them' a better player. I do have problems believing either of these superstitions simply because that is precisely what they are, superstitions. They have no more scientific foundation than wearing your wife's underpants on back to front on a Tuesdays so your football team will win and that is just plain silly because every body knows that football does not start until Friday night.

Cheers

Kim

I can see that you do have problems with superstitions, but I don't watch football or wear my wife's underpants.

Must be a cultural thing

Cheers

Kim

definitely the funniest thing I have heard all day.

Cheers,
-jd

I like the Radio-shaker idea....

Looks like I need to sacrifice a cheap old clock radio for the cause -- it sure would be an easy way to get some music down in the basement.....

Thanks

John