Official Luthiers Forum!

I've held off jumping into this for awhile, mostly till my thoughts matured enough to articulate well.

If you are a professional builder with regular demand for your work then it in a good strategy to lay in a stock of wood. This just makes sense, these are the materials used in your livelihood. You already know what you will need, roughly how much, and how long it will last at your current production rates. You can also afford to take advantage of good opportunities as they come a long, which also just makes good sense.

If you are a hobby builder the situation is completely different.

An established amateur building one or two guitars per year should lay in a stock that should supply the building for a few years ahead. Top, brace, and neck woods dictate pretty clear needs. Back and side woods should include the basics and, as Heath described, a few "inspirational" sets.

A beginning hobby builder should really only buy on an as-needed basis. Who knows where their building will lead? How many guitars will they will need materials for? And, really, their thoughts on what they value will change so dramatically over a very short time that laying in a stock will be counterproductive.

More than this is just hoarding.

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Expectation is the source of all misery; comparison the thief of joy.
http://redrivercanoe.ca/

I think if you are thinking of it as an "investment," you have to consider it a very risky investment with reasonably high maintenance costs (space to keep your investment safe from fire, theft, cracking, pests, water, etc)... Dollars are much cheaper to store and maintain. I have a nice little stash going, probably too much considering my anemic output this far. I consider it getting a good price on a desirable consumable that I will probably consume in the future. At the present time, I could probably sell it for more than I paid for most of it, but if it was all eaten by termites tomorrow it really wouldn't put us in dire straits financially.

I actually have thought of liquidating my stash in order to help fund the building of a proper shop/garage, or moving to a place that has proper shop space. My current shop is an upstairs bedroom of my house, and when my wife and I start adding babies to our household, I'm not going to have power tools, sawdust, and various chemicals across the hall from my kid's bedroom. It is hard to think about getting rid of stuff I know I probably would never be able to find for sale again.

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Jonathan Kendall, Siloam Springs AR

Hi Filippo,

You should look forward to that guitar coming to life! And it is all the more special as your father already has a connection to the wood that will be used.

I think that we are on the same track as to the meaning of hoarding. I take it to mean building and maintaining a stash of high value/exotic, desirable wood far out of proportion to ones actual needs, means, and likelihood to actually ever use. Its just so easy for a beginner to get sucked into the allure...

I think that it is entirely appropriate for a guitar builder to establish a stash of wood that is appropriate to their skill and production levels.

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Expectation is the source of all misery; comparison the thief of joy.
http://redrivercanoe.ca/

Jonathan, I can think of a grand place for those excess pieces of wood to reside. When the kids start coming, give me a call.
I love traveling in Arkansas anyway, and would love to come up your way!

Steve

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From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

Thanks, Steve, I'll keep that in mind. You probably wouldn't want my stash anyway, I've got these "Lucky Strikes" tops that I think were made from redwood beams from the warehouse at the old Lucky Strikes cigarette plant, probably would make your shop stink like an ashtray. (this is how rumors get started)

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Jonathan Kendall, Siloam Springs AR

I really disagree with the hoarding idea.. I don't think you should go out and buy a pallet of anything but I definately think collecting valuable pieces during your travels can't hurt. You're going to come across all kinds of deals and rare pieces that will either be out of your price range or comepletely unavailable to you in the future. You can disagree with me but I've got a couple pretty good examples. I picked up a set from "the tree" on a whim and now I could sell it for 3 times what I paid for it. I've also got a bundle of "Curly Bear" tops that ended up getting misplaced and by the time I found them (2 years later) they were selling or almost 4 times what I picked them up for.

I've only been doing the tonewood seriously since 2000ish and I've watched everything rise in value. I read through the old lutherie articles and talk to builders about the 70s and 80s. You know figured Koa used to go for $35 a set? Guitar tops with 10 to 20 to 30 lines per inch aren't growing back in any of our lifetimes.


Worst case scenario when you call it quits you have money saved/invested in the stock you can sell off to the next generation of luthiers/wood junkies.

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CVT Inc.
A tour of our shop (Somewhat outdated)
My Personal eBay profile. BCWoodBug

Yes, I've heard of Koa at $35 set in the 70s.

That was 40 years ago. At 6% interest that equates to $360 today. So, I'd be cautious of considering wood an investment as such. Especially since a small house fire, water damage, etc., can turn that stock into $0 in a second, or new CITES rules can suddenly make that wood unsellable.

Koa is always brought up as one of the more extreme examples, as the price rise was pretty meteoric. Lesser woods will appreciate, well, less.

I'm not saying it can't turn out nicely for you, but there is plenty of risk as well. And in the investment world people look for a much higher hurdle rate than 6% for risky investments.

I recognize their are many other factors than economic, but don't be lulled by the 'this wood used to go for $xxx' arguments. Do the math, and see if your banker can't do better with much lower risk.

I wasn't saying you should bank your retirement on a wood stash. Where are you getting a safe 6% these days? My bank's advertised "High Interest" accounts are 1.000% as of this morning. After banking fees I might as well bury my money in the back yard.

The "meteoric rise" of a handful of tonewoods has been fueled by their rapid decline. BRW, Mahogany, high end/old growth tops, and several other examples are out there. High quality tonewoods are always going to be in demand and on the rise. If you're building anyways keeping a few years ahead of yourself isn't going to hurt.

You've also got to consider the deal you can get in big buys, whether private or group. You put together an order of 100+ sets you're generally getting that set at half price.

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CVT Inc.
A tour of our shop (Somewhat outdated)
My Personal eBay profile. BCWoodBug

For me, NOT accumulating more tonewood is the challenge... with the gating factor being what's in my bank account at the moment, and the current level of harmony with my wife...

I just fall in love with some of these sets, and need to remind myself that at my current build rate I won't use them all for a very long time.

That said, I do see the value in buying a set or two here and there when you really like them and they price is right, even if you don't have an immediate project. I've gotten some very good BRW sets (not the stumpwood stuff on ebay) over the past couple of years at a very good price (less than $500) just by being in the right place at the right time.

So where do you pick up the nice boards?........locally or buy them over the internet after looking at pictures? I've never seen a rosewood board for sale locally that I can recall. I ask as there are several places to purchase sawn sets but I've no idea where to shop for boards to cut my own sets.

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Formerly known as Adaboy.......

Darryl, you might like to check out Johnson Lumber in Jay, OK. I've never been, but I hear good things. Also, Flynt Hardwoods in Springdale is pretty good. Both carry some exotics. I got some Honduran Mah. from Flynt last year but it was extra they had from a special order.

Nations Hardwood in Prairie Grove AR is pretty incredible if you're looking for local woods, I think he said nearly everything they had was from within 50 miles. He's basically retired, though, so you have to make an appointment and good luck during hunting season. Lots of cherry, walnut, oak, maple, etc...

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Jonathan Kendall, Siloam Springs AR

Thanks for those suggestions Johnathan. The only one I was familiar with is Flynt and Son Hardwood. Several years back when he was making custom furniture, I used to visit his place out at his farm. I've not been to his newer facility in Tonitown where he makes moulding.

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Formerly known as Adaboy.......

Because next week, Howard will have bought them!!!

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Tickle your guitar daily, and it'll tickle you back.

Really, you think?

Hmmm...
what about this approach regarding
your thoughts on a wood stash...go here

http://vimeo.com/7430979 and click on the video.

blessings
Padma

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


.

sheesh

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John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

Pad man
we can't all do tricks fur lumberjacks

I enjoyed that video, . Very restful.

Is the idea that if I don't get rid of my stash, I won't attract new and improved wood? 'Cause I think I can live with that. But I was a bit surprised that those monks want to get a lot of new stuff.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Heath,
Fine tone woods will not be available forever. Get them while you can........The only ones that I know of that are plentiful are the Oaks, Walnuts, Maples and Cherries, and the Spruce tops. All the exotics have a limited lifetime of availability. Just like some of the Rosewoods that are extinct, the others will follow. I'm stocking up on them as I can afford them. As long as you have a safe place to store them, buy what you can. They usually don't depreciate in value. You can't lose. I know that it is evil, but I don't cut the trees down myself. Someone else does that. If I don't buy them, someone else will. I think that most countries are aware of the problem, and will address it when they need to. Sooner or later, you won't be able to get those tone woods anymore. Bob C. knows me well...........And he is a great guy who is trying to make a living providing us with the materials we need to do what we do. No crime in that. But I think there is an end in sight......

Heath,
Fine tone woods will not be available forever. Get them while you can........The only ones that I know of that are plentiful are the Oaks, Walnuts, Maples and Cherries, and the Spruce tops. All the exotics have a limited lifetime of availability. Just like some of the Rosewoods that are extinct, the others will follow. I'm stocking up on them as I can afford them. As long as you have a safe place to store them, buy what you can. They usually don't depreciate in value. You can't lose. I know that it is evil, but I don't cut the trees down myself. Someone else does that. If I don't buy them, someone else will. I think that most countries are aware of the problem, and will address it when they need to. Sooner or later, you won't be able to get those tone woods anymore. Bob C. knows me well...........And he is a great guy who is trying to make a living providing us with the materials we need to do what we do. No crime in that. But I think there is an end in sight......

Sorry for the duplicate reply. My PC is acting up......

Uh-oh.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.